77 comments

  • jvanderbot 4 hours ago
    It's surprising to me that people don't consider these coded language.

    Sure, the junior manager might use them vaguely to mimic, but IMHO, when vague language comes up at decision tables, it's usually coding something more precise in a sort of plausible deniability.

    A senior manager on reviewing a proposal asks them to synergize with existing efforts: Your work is redundant you're wasting your time.

    A senior director talks about better alignment of their various depts: We need to cut fat and merge, start identifying your bad players

    etc etc.

    If my impressions are correct, of course ICs are going to balk at these statements - they seem disconnected from reality and are magically disconnected from the effects on purpose. Yes, this is bad management to the ICs, but it's pretty culturally inevitable, I think, to have an in-group signalling their strategies using coded language.

    A good manager takes this direction in front of all their ICs, laughs it off as corpo speak, but was given the signal to have a private talk with one of their group who triggered the problem... I dunno maybe my time in management was particularly distopian, but this seemed obvious once I saw it.

    • jjk166 3 hours ago
      In the test these weren't coded language, they were randomly generated phrases. The finding is that the people who don't know how to decipher the code are easily impressed by it and have poor analytical skills.
      • red-iron-pine 50 minutes ago
        The Gervais Principle by the Ribbonfarm guy gets into this: powertalk vs. babytalk

        https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

        the Cornell article is basically just empirical testing of these concepts.

      • jvanderbot 2 hours ago
        from TFA:

        > “Corporate bullshit is a specific style of communication that uses confusing, abstract buzzwords in a functionally misleading way,” said Littrell, a postdoctoral researcher in the College of Arts and Sciences. “Unlike technical jargon, which can sometimes make office communication a little easier, corporate bullshit confuses rather than clarifies. It may sound impressive, but it is semantically empty.”

        I'm taking issue with "semantically empty" and saying they're actually semantically rich, but they are coded signals. Coded signals become increasingly indistinguishable from noise.

        • jjk166 12 minutes ago
          But they're not semantically rich. People who speak the code aren't doing it to more efficiently communicate, such that a long and complicated message can be expressed quickly. They are taking a short simple message, stripping away all the details, then padding it such that it becomes more verbose and vapid. This makes the real message harder to decipher for the uninitiated, it removes information even for those who understand the code, and it serves as a display for people who appreciate the flourish. There may still be some meaning left, but it's semantically emptier.

          Further much of it is not even code. Examples like the microsoft letter are clearly a performative act to soften the blow of bad news. No one in the know is reading such an email to discern some hidden message; it's written to not be read.

        • oblio 1 hour ago
          > Eventually they figured out that language served a different purpose inside the bond market than it did in the outside world. Bond market terminology was designed less to convey meaning than to bewilder outsiders. Overpriced bonds were not "expensive" overpriced bonds were "rich," which almost made them sound like something you should buy. The floors of subprime mortgage bonds were not called floors--or anything else that might lead the bond buyer to form any sort of concrete image in his mind--but tranches. The bottom tranche--the risky ground floor--was not called the ground floor but the mezzanine, or the mezz, which made it sound less like a dangerous investment and more like a highly prized seat in a domed stadium. A CDO composed of nothing but the riskiest, mezzanine layer of subprime mortgages was not called a subprime-backed CDO but a "structured finance CDO." "There was so much confusion about the different terms," said Charlie. "In the course of trying to figure it out, we realize that there's a reason why it doesn't quite make sense to us. It's because it doesn't quite make sense."

          The Big Short by Michael Lewis, page 101.

          • astrange 1 hour ago
            I thought a mezzanine was when you go see a movie at noon.
            • vermilingua 1 hour ago
              I believe that’s a matinee
            • rawgabbit 32 minutes ago
              The mezzanine is the drink with the worm in it; after you get "mezzed", you feel like the worm is eating you from the inside.
              • ahoka 13 minutes ago
                No, that’s mescaline (Spanish for tequila).
            • mikrl 1 hour ago
              That’s a martingale you’re thinking of
    • alexjplant 2 hours ago
      Synergy has a real meaning: 1+1=3. A cigar and a whiskey. Chocolate and peanut butter. Hall and Oates. Et cetera. Unfortunately it's one of those terms like "DevOps" or "jam band" or "martini" whose true meaning has been sullied by people trying to sound cooler than they are.

      On the rare occasions I've used it sincerely in meetings I've always caveated it with some variation of "the real meaning, not the BS one." This never seems to work so I've just dropped it from my verbal lexicon altogether.

      • collingreen 40 minutes ago
        I always avoid synergy and say "bigger than the sum of its parts" or "peanut butter and jelly". Simple language with less baggage.
        • alexjplant 29 minutes ago
          ...except for those of us who think that PB&J is a culinary abomination in which case the metaphor disintegrates ;-D (apologies to my mother for having to make me PB-only sandwiches growing up)

          I do wonder whether adding chips or bacon to counteract the cloying one-dimensional sweetness of the other ingredients would make me a fan though... chunky natural PB, blackberry jelly, hickory-smoked bacon on ciabatta? Hipster PbB&J might be the ticket.

      • fhd2 2 hours ago
        That's the right move. If a word changes its colloquial meaning, better drop it and find a new one. Happens all the time. From stuff like "agile" in a software development context (pretty meaningless at this point, can mean anything from the original definition to the systematic micro management it got to be commonly associated with), to previously neutral words that became offensive (because they were commonly used as such).

        No individual holds power over connotations. Language just evolves.

        • atroon 2 hours ago
          > No individual holds power over connotations. Language just evolves.

          Okay, but I still reserve the right to be pissed off at teenagers using 'out of pocket' when they mean 'off the wall' or 'out of bounds'.

          • fhd2 1 hour ago
            Absolutely. I'm pro emotions :) Just also good to realise what battles are lost.

            I do sometimes rebelliously use words in their original connotation along with an unnecessarily lengthy explanation. Never anything that's now an insult, of course, those I just stay away from and am not mad about either.

          • bcrosby95 1 hour ago
            This usage is probably older than you're thinking: some 80s and 90s hip hop songs used "out of pocket" like that.
      • johnisgood 2 hours ago
        Why would you drop it altogether? Medications and/or supplements can have synergistic effects, for example. Synergy is actually a term that is formally defined as "Effect(A + B) > Effect(A) + Effect(B)".
        • michaelt 1 hour ago
          The point of saying and writing things is to be understood by your audience.

          If I know a given wording is widely misunderstood, to the point I'm planning to immediately follow it with a clarification - often that's a sign it's not a very good wording.

          There are exceptions, of course - go ahead and say Cephalopods (things like octopuses and squid) if you're a marine biology educator.

          • johnisgood 29 minutes ago
            I am pretty sure the term "synergistic" is widely used among laymen as well in the context of supplements and medications.

            So yeah, sure, context does matter.

    • hyperman1 2 hours ago
      There is also the signalling when a new, truly meaningless fragment pops up. The bigwig says it first, then his direct reports, then their underlings, etc.

      So by using such a phrase, underlings signal both how close they are to bigwigs by knowing such a phrase first, and also demonstrate a vote for alignement, by quoting some phrases more and others less. Bigwigs raise status of underlings by repeating and expressing interest in their new phrases.

      These phrases come and go in waves. Underlings laughing with them basically signal they are not worthy of attention in the political melee.

      • zippyman55 5 minutes ago
        At my final Job, I jokingly used the word SPITBALL… in no time, everyone was saying…. I’m just spitballing here…. So funny.
    • deaux 3 hours ago
      > it's pretty culturally inevitable, I think, to have an in-group signalling their strategies using coded language.

      Pretty shocking belief when you're of courseing all "ICs".

      If it was inevitable than the amount and degree of corporate BS would've been stable over the last 5 decades, and across countries and languages.

      In reality, it has been anything but, instead showing massive differences across both.

    • PunchyHamster 4 hours ago
      Do note that senior manager thinking the work is redundant also might be completely not aligned with reality. so "I think your work is redundant" is much closer to usual reality. And it's easy to be seen that as you pretty much also need to be a PR person for your own department, not just a manager, especially if department is doing necessary but not glorious tasks
    • btilly 3 hours ago
      More precisely than "plausible deniability", it is plausible EMOTIONAL deniability.

      When you put enough bafflegab around it, you can almost ignore that you said something unpleasant. Because the part of our brains that processes for emotional content, doesn't process complex language very well. Hence the example with ten paragraphs of complexity to hide the pain of a major lay-off.

      After I noticed this, I found that I did this. I reliably use complex language when I don't like what I'm saying. So much so that I could use readability checkers to find discomfort that I was not aware that I had!

      And I'm not the only one to notice this. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpVtJNv4ZNM for George Carlin's famous skit on how the honesty of the phrase "shell shock" over time got softened over time to "post-traumatic stress disorder". A phrase that can be understood, but no longer felt.

      Corporations have just developed their own special complex language for this. And you're right. It is emotionally dishonest. That's why they do it.

    • Muromec 4 hours ago
      Its an interesting take, bit why is this coded ingroup messaging is communicated to outgroup then?
      • jvanderbot 3 hours ago
        One example elaborated:

        You _want_ most ICs to ignore a negative message that doesn't involve them, and you _want_ to give middle / lower managers the discretion to address an ICs "nonsynergistic" contributions on their own time. It's a signal not a prescription. This allows a public person to make a public statement and set direction without prescribing actions so lower management and ICs can do their thing.

        Upper management becomes increasingly vibes-based, from what I can tell.

        • contubernio 3 hours ago
          It would be a hell of a lot more functional to simply say directly what you want and mean.

          This sort of management is dysfunctional even in it's premises.

          • jvanderbot 2 hours ago
            In this example you're actually just being polite. You are not calling out a person publicly, you're transmitting a course-correction through their manager that allows the person who knows you best to communicate the correction the best way AND it allows the corpo to take the blame for being vague and uninformative.

            Sure, direct, cold, concrete, public data is "best" in the objective sense, but people's feelings and pride matter, and any attempt to wave that away is just naive.

            • beardedetim 1 hour ago
              Early in my career I tried very hard to "be concrete, cold, and direct" because that's what I thought a good communicator would do. It was seen as attacking to anyone below me and confusing to anyone above me. I was naive and I suffered for it.

              I definitely agree with what you're saying here where these words actually do mean something, but it's completely opaque to those outside the "know". I also have found that there's not any better way to express information to those in the group than in this coded language, even if it makes completely no sense to me.

              I wish younger me understood that the way I'm being perceived is the only important thing, not choosing the "best" words to technically describe a situation

          • Muromec 2 hours ago
            Saying exactly what you mean is generating the paper trail and accountability, which is a liability.
            • dsr_ 2 hours ago
              In a sane system, it would not be a liability.

              QED.

              • Muromec 1 hour ago
                Define sane
                • red-iron-pine 46 minutes ago
                  best possible outcome for most people

                  or even best possible outcomes for the shareholders. cuz most of this coded BS is to make some executive's life easier, not to keep the board happy.

                  if they had a concrete plan they'd say it, and coded signals are only for certain audiences, who in most cases may not be most people, most shareholders, or more employees.

      • btilly 3 hours ago
        For a somewhat cynical explanation of why that happens, I recommend https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-....

        As with all forms of cynicism, it has a grain of truth. And a much larger grain of truth than is comfortable.

      • estimator7292 4 hours ago
        To solidfy the in-ness of the in-group. To underscore that management is better than ICs and ICs are considered other
    • thewebguyd 4 hours ago
      Yeah, I agree. Language has always been a tool for tribal gatekeeping and in-group signaling, but also as a tool for precision.

      What's specifically interesting about corpo-speak though is it's one of the only version of this (at least that I know of) where it's main purpose is to be euphemistic. In most other fields, the coded language is meant to be more descriptive to the in-group. In management, the coded language is designed to be less descriptive on purpose to avoid the human cost of the decision.

      It's dystopian because it follows the same patterns as military language, and serves the same purpose to sanitize unpleasant realities. "Neutralize the target" in military lingo, "Right-size" in corpo-speak. In both cases, the human at the end is stripped of their humanity into a target or resource to be managed (or killed).

      • rebolek 4 hours ago
        It's not like they're very subtle about this with their "human resources" horror speak.
    • lukeschlather 3 hours ago
      You're confusing bullshit with jargon, which is something they talk about in the paper. The word synergize has a bad reputation, but its mere presence in a sentence is merely a signal, it doesn't mean the sentence is bullshit.

      "We will actualize a renewed level of cradle-to-grave credentialing" is an example from the article - you can't actualize a level, you can't renew a level either. And "cradle-to-grave credentialing" is at best a bad way to describe some real concept. It's word-salad from start to finish. It's not coded language, it's bullshit.

    • sp1nningaway 1 hour ago
      I think this also explains some of our political climate. Everything the current administration says sounds like gibberish and equivocation to me, but to its intended audience it is a clear communication about wielding power and grift.

      Conversely, when someone talks about "decolonizing" a curriculum or "centering" marginalized voices, to me it's a clear statement about who gets to define meaning and whose history counts, but to my Boomer uncle it's incoherent, if not an outright attack.

      • red-iron-pine 44 minutes ago
        > The Russian language has two different words for what most European languages would describe as lies. One is lozh (ложь), best translated into what we consider to be a lie; something that is the opposite of the truth. There is also vranyo (враньё). Vranyo is more than a simple lie. It is described as: ‘You know I’m lying, and I know that you know, and you know that I know that you know, but I go ahead with a straight face, and you nod seriously and take notes.’

        Trump is taking a lesson from Putin. Social media makes this extra easy, as you can bury criticism with a hoard of what-aboutism-bots, redirected arguments, and straight up BS.

        see also: https://militairespectator.nl/artikelen/vranyo

      • oblio 1 hour ago
        > "decolonizing" a curriculum or "centering" marginalized voices

        Can you expand on this?

        • sp1nningaway 1 hour ago
          Those are just examples of academic/progressive jargon that I hear often in the Bay Area and in progressive circles. "Decolonizing," could mean for instance changing world history curriculum to cover non-western civilizations. "Centering" seems like maybe it just means focusing on, but there is a whole academic apparatus for designing curriculum around say, indigenous practices, and centering is the word used for that entire concept, which includes specific techniques.

          I think to get the full meaning of both, you'd need to be fairly steeped in a world that uses those words all the time AND it is often used to identify people who "get it" from those who don't.

      • g3f32r 1 hour ago
        > to my Boomer uncle it's incoherent, if not an outright attack.

        These are separate things. If he's interpreting it as an outright attack, he _is_ hearing it correctly. But incoherence would imply he's _not_ hearing the coded language in it's true meaning.

    • elzbardico 3 hours ago
      There's CYA jargon, like layoffs, workforce rationalizations, letting someone go, challenging fiscal environment.

      And there's blatant bullshit, like paradigm shift, culture building, and so on.

      Two categories of execspeak.

      • jvanderbot 3 hours ago
        I think those are just degree of difference in "context required to understand", not different categories.
        • johnisgood 2 hours ago
          You think so, with a term such as "culture building"?
    • geon 3 hours ago
      For anyone else as confused as I was; apparently "IC" means Individual Contributor, as opposed to leadership or management.
      • jvanderbot 3 hours ago
        Let's play "spot the manager"
        • SpicyLemonZest 3 hours ago
          I don't mean to shame anyone for learning new information, but even if you have no interest in management, your career will benefit greatly from knowing the terms and concepts that managers in your industry commonly use. There's a lot of people out there who are aggressively against learning "corporate jargon" and then find themselves lost trying to understand why their company's leaders talk and act the way they do.
          • shermantanktop 3 hours ago
            A lot of the “I won’t learn it” people are young. The ones who aren’t young end up appearing naive and ignorant.

            The day the layoffs take your job (but not your officemate’s) might be a good day to learn how to read the corporate signals.

          • NikolaNovak 2 hours ago
            Couldn't agree more.

            Early in my career, I hated, and I do mean despised people who used the term "value".

            And then, one day when my colleague suggested migrating all our servers from windows to Linux but couldn't for the life of them articulate what that would do for the business / client, it started clicking. A lot of us talk about effort, activities, tasks, accomplishments. I did this, Bob did that, Fatime did the other thing. At some level of management, "value" is the well understood shorthand for "when we follow the chain of benefits, what does this actually do for the client / business?". Its their job (when done well) to ensure technical tasks contribute to business value.

            And we could be upset that they are inventing weird jargon for no clear reason, but then spend a minute explaining "garbage collection" etc as a term of art, and realize that pots are calling kettle black and all that - nobody has weird jargon like IT techies :->

        • QuercusMax 3 hours ago
          When I was hired at my current role, it was clear to me that I'm in an IC vs Management position. It's really not that weird and is a very common term.
    • cushychicken 3 hours ago
      it's usually coding something more precise in a sort of plausible deniability.

      Yep. I'm a director now. This is exactly how it is. A big part of being effective in this role is understanding how direct you can be in a given scenario.

      A senior manager on reviewing a proposal asks them to synergize with existing efforts: Your work is redundant you're wasting your time.

      Option 1 is how I'd say it to a peer whose org is duplicating effort. You can give your advice, but at the end of the day: not my circus, not my clowns.

      Option 2 is a more-direct way of how I'd say it to someone in my own org. I'd rephrase to: "Someone else is already doing this; focus your efforts on something more impactful."

  • headcanon 5 hours ago
    If anyone wants a chuckle, I vibe-coded an endless supply of "synergizing paradigm" terms as a slideshow for a fake corporation. It's fun to put on in the background on a tv somewhere to see if anyone notices.

    https://brightpath-global-solutions.com/

    Edit: repo link: https://github.com/chronick/global-business-solutions

    • gregw2 3 hours ago
      A bit of "hacker history"... at the dawn of the web 1993 was birthed the first app (that I know of) along these lines: "Buzzword Bingo".

      It got mentioned in WSJ of all places as news of it spread.

      For the history+app from its creator, see:

      https://lurkertech.com/buzzword-bingo/

      (Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzzword_bingo )

      I'm glad to see, 25-30 years later, the hackers/cynical-tech-workers who birthed it getting justified by actual social science research.

    • rawgabbit 26 minutes ago
      This is a masterpiece. I have seen similar slides in many consultants' decks over the years.
    • el_benhameen 5 hours ago
      • reactordev 5 hours ago
        Ah, “the only difference being…”

        That’s always the line you’re listening for. Everything before that is bullshit, everything after is trying to justify the new product for that one change.

        In favor of preferable outcomes of operational excellence as part of our customer success. Barf.

        • el_benhameen 4 hours ago
          I keep hearing this from the naysayers, but I just think that they haven’t fully integrated unilateral phase detractors into their work effectively. Maybe you’re using the free retro encabulator tier so you don’t see the full capabilities, but some of us are already twice as productive.
      • plaidphantom 4 hours ago
    • linolevan 4 hours ago
      This is awesome. Almost all of these are believable even if you're looking at pretty carefully. I need this on a firestick or something.
    • janalsncm 3 hours ago
      Reminds me of corporate ipsum

      https://www.corporate-ipsum.com/

    • johnisgood 1 hour ago
      "Affordable ... at premium prices". :D
    • fnands 5 hours ago
      Some of those pictures are delightfully cursed
    • mv4 5 hours ago
      as someone frequently exhibiting at various industry trade shows, I can confidently say nobody would notice.
    • the_real_cher 4 hours ago
      Brilliant!
    • roysting 4 hours ago
      [dead]
    • utopiah 5 hours ago
      Where can I transfer millions in investments already? This is revolutionary. It'll change everything! /s
    • cyanydeez 4 hours ago
      Turn it into an endless LLM trap. The sooner tgese aystems are piinsoned, the batter humanoty will last
  • blobbers 0 minutes ago
    Based on how they conducted the test: - used an IQ / analytical test - correlated that to whether people cared about flowery language

    Generally speaking, analytical people care more about numbers than words, so isn't this more of an 'expected result'?

  • rdevilla 7 hours ago
    I suspect this is why formal languages exist; as a sieve to keep the hordes of fools at bay, and a system for turning bullshit into parse errors.

    We are undoing much of this progress by now insisting everything be expressed in natural language for a machine to translate on our behalf, like a tour guide.

    The natives will continue to speak amongst themselves in their mother tongue.

    • leonardoe 46 minutes ago
      This observation really resonates with me. I have spent a lot of energy trying to communicate that ditching formal languages for natural language is a terrible idea in some (most?) domains. The power of formal languages comes precisely from their "limitations".

      Software is not the output. The output is the theory-building process by which one arrives a formal description of both the problem and (hopefully) the solution. Avoiding the effort to express a problem (or a model of the problem) in a formal language is a self-defeating enterprise.

    • PunchyHamster 4 hours ago
      The corpo-speak sounds like mostly way to communicate contentious things in nice way, everything done to not sound negative or aggresive, while knowing (or hoping) that other side gets the message.

      It is awfully unproductive way to do it but I'm sure HR approves.

    • utopiah 5 hours ago
      Which is precisely why proper scammers, not to say "top" management, is excellent at spotting keywords, or even better shibboleh, and using them. If they must they'll even learn and adopt new keywords from HBR or whatever trendy management publication can help them look the par.
    • CGMthrowaway 6 hours ago
      >a sieve to keep the hordes of fools at bay

      Corporate speak as a signalling mechanism is only effective among the "clueless" in the Gervais model. If any CEO tried to talk 1:1 to a competent board member that way, they would lose all credibility. Once you've operated at a certain level you get it

      >a system for turning bullshit into parse errors.

      This is the (cynical version of) the framing I tend to hold about corporate speak. It's deliberately vague as a way to navigate uncertainty while still projecting authority and avoiding accountability in settings like a town hall, large meeting etc. Which is not to be read as a necessarily "bad" thing. No one wants a micromanaging CEO. They have to set vision and direction while leaving space for it top be executed by all the layers under them

      • jonahx 5 hours ago
        > They have to set vision and direction

        A prime example of corporate speak that is, as you rightly said, 'only effective among the "clueless"'

      • dec0dedab0de 5 hours ago
        Corporate speak as a signalling mechanism is only effective among the "clueless" in the Gervais model. If any CEO tried to talk 1:1 to a competent board member that way, they would lose all credibility. Once you've operated at a certain level you get it

        This also holds true for competent non-board members. I have interacted with C-level executives at fortune 100 companies, as well as smaller businesses. It is almost impressive how quickly they can switch in and out of corporate bullshit mode. I think it's what the kids call code-switching.

        In general, once they trust you a bit, and they know someone isn't listening they talk like a normal person. Then you ask a difficult question about the business and the corporate-speak kicks in like a security sub routine trying to prevent them from saying the wrong thing.

        I have also met some that seemingly calculate their tone and cadence to try to manipulate the person(s)/people(s) they're talking to. It's fascinating when you catch them doing it, and it's different than simply matching like a chameleon. For example, they may use an authoritative tone with younger people, a kind but subtly threatening tone with anxious people, and a buddybuddy tone with a plumber or someone they know isn't going to put up with any bullshit.

        I'm really curious how much of it is formally taught in MBA programs and stuff, how much is them copying each other, and if any of it is just a natural defense mechanism to the pressures of being in power.

        • macNchz 4 hours ago
          Ultimately I think all of what you describe there falls into a bucket of personality traits and social skills that contribute to success in many areas of life.

          It's some combination of what they call "self monitoring" in social psychology, plus general EQ and Machiavellian personality traits that allow people to read the room and adjust their tone, speaking style, word choice (including picking up in-group lingo quickly), posture etc to be most effective given the setting. This applies to basically any social environment, and is often a frustrating reality to many people who may be extremely competent but see others around them who are obviously less competent "getting ahead" through social acumen, office politics etc.

          This has been studied among MBA graduates, Do Chameleons Get Ahead, The Effects of Self-Monitoring on Managerial Careers (pdf): https://web.mit.edu/curhan/www/docs/Articles/15341_Readings/...

        • justonceokay 4 hours ago
          The higher up you are in a company the more of “yourself” you have to give as realistically many more people are relying on your job results than they are on your personal wellbeing.

          It definitely takes a certain kind of person to be a good fit in that role

        • SoftTalker 4 hours ago
          > I have also met some that seemingly calculate their tone and cadence to try to manipulate the person(s)/people(s) they're talking to.

          This is a trait of a psychopath. Not surprisingly, one finds a lot of them in the executive ranks.

          • jjkaczor 2 hours ago
            The polite term these days is "sociopath", which takes out the whole "psycho-killer" weightedness (because a sociopath can be very likeable and friendly) - and they fill the ranks of leadership in all professions...
        • anthonypasq 4 hours ago
          what you view as subtly manipulative is just having good social skills
        • jjkaczor 2 hours ago
          Haven't there also been many studies that show high-level executives also have a high number of "sociopaths" in their ranks?

          Sociopaths can code-switch instantly - I wonder how much of this is training, versus emulating others, versus a fundamental difference in brain operations...

      • gzread 2 hours ago
        The Gervais model! I haven't heard that in a while.
      • aerodexis 5 hours ago
        The Gervais model is predicated on sociopathy as the driving force of social cohesion. This is the kind of model a sociopath would construct. There are other models available to us.

        Social organizations require some sort of glue to bind them together. They need ways to maintain cohesion despite vagueness and to obscure (small) errors. There is a cap put upon max individual output, but aggregate output is much higher than whatever a collection of individuals could attain. This is a very basic dynamic that is lost amidst a cult of individualism that refuses to admit to any good greater than themselves.

        Yes - the CEO talking to the board in this way would lose credibility. But a CEO failing to deploy this jargon correctly would also lose credibility with the board : it's obvious he doesn't know how to lead.

        What I would like to see is a study of the ratio's between corporate speak and technical speak - and the inflection points at which too much of either causes organization ruin.

        • moepstar 4 hours ago
          Hate to ask, but since it came up again and a quick search couldn’t find it - what’s that Gervais model? Links / explanations welcome!

          Edit: seems that searching for „Gervais principle“ turned up what was talked about…

      • duped 6 hours ago
        > Which is not to be read as a necessarily "bad" thing

        I (and many others) read it as "dishonesty"

        • Barbing 5 hours ago
          Is there a historical example or does anyone have an anecdote of some crunch time where the CEO blowing hot air was the best thing for morale? Compared to what I might think a lot of us would prefer in many cases, which might be an honest assessment & making us part of the journey to overcome whatever adversity.
          • arethuza 5 hours ago
            "an honest assessment & making us part of the journey to overcome whatever adversity"

            I suspect that most people just aren't wired up that way - we have a natural tendency to want to follow leaders and what we seem to want most from leaders is certainty and confidence. Does it matter what leaders are certain and confident about - not really.

            • VorpalWay 5 hours ago
              It is hard to argue with a vague statement like "most people" without a proper scientific study. But I disagree: following the scientific principle, and being willing to change opinion in the face of new evidence increases my trust in someone. Someone who is certain and confident without showing their work / sources make me suspicious. And critical thinking is (pardon the pun) a critical skill.
              • andrewflnr 1 hour ago
                If you actually think and act that way, so much the better. I don't even particularly disbelieve you. But can you really look at the mass of humanity around you and believe they think the same way? Even if they claim to value critical thinking, watch what they do, what they buy, how they vote.

                You've most likely trained yourself to value critical thinking in your leaders, most likely from an early enough age that you don't remember what it was like without it. Lots of people don't get this training or don't apply it in a fully general way.

        • AnimalMuppet 5 hours ago
          Not exactly?

          Let's say there are a thousand people there at the town hall. You don't want any of them to leave upset, or even concerned. But they each have different things that will make them concerned and upset. So there are maybe 10,000 tripwires out there, and you don't want to trip any of them.

          So you're not being dishonest, exactly. You're being nonspecific. You don't want to get down in the weeds and nail down the answer too tightly, because you may trip someone's tripwire. (And also because it would take to long.) So you say something true but not very specific.

          (I mean, there can be dishonesty, too, but that's a different thing. Smooth vagueness can still be honest, just unsatisfyingly vague.)

          • duped 1 hour ago
            "Smooth vagueness" to me comes off as tautologies. If you cannot say anything specific it means either you don't know, or don't want others to know. So it is a lie about ones' competency, or a lie by omission.

            It's all dishonesty at the end of the day.

    • raffael_de 5 hours ago
      > formal languages exist; as [...] a system for turning bullshit into parse errors

      that's a very neat way to put it!

    • AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago
      But if someone says something like "synergizing paradigms", isn't that essentially a parse error to any normal person?

      You don't need formal language (though formal languages can serve that purpose). You just need to listen like a normal human being rather than like a corporate suit, and that kind of language is just incomprehensible - a parse error. You have to work at it to make sense of that kind of language. And why I took from your first paragraph is permission to treat it as a parse error instead of as some valid message that I needed to decode.

      • cyanydeez 4 hours ago
        My guy: corporate sloganeering is as much cultural appropiation as ghetto speak and drug culture.

        Theres no high minded difference. Its just in/out group identification.

    • alcasa 7 hours ago
      Maybe controversial, but I believe a lot of OOP/Clean Code patterns are the software equivalent of corporate BS.
      • antonymoose 6 hours ago
        Wildly controversial!

        I look at OOP Patterns as standards and practices.

        The same way we have building codes for staircases the framing of walls and electrical installations to prevent injury or collapse or fire.

        Sure, you can dodge a lot of design pattern paradigms and still make a working application that makes money. You can also invent your own system when building your house and maybe nothing bad will happen. That tragedy hasn’t yet struck does not make the building codes bad just because you got away with it.

        • domga 6 hours ago
          A decent chunk of OOP patterns was due to lack of language features, notably passing and returning functions
          • jghn 5 hours ago
            It's both.

            The *concept* of patterns makes sense. A shared language that developers can use when building things.

            The *reality* of patterns has been much less useful. The original ones were indeed a reaction to warts in the popular languages of their era. And as we tend to do in our industry, these have been cargo culted along the way and for some reason I still see people talking about them as first class citizens 30 years later.

            People don't seem to realize that patterns should be and are fluid, and as our industry evolves these patterns are evolving as well. A major difference between software engineering and the analogous fields people use when talking about patterns is those industries are much older and move less quickly

          • layer8 6 hours ago
            Since a single-method object easily serves the role of such a function, that’s simply not true. Looking at the 23 GoF patterns, I can’t identify any that would be obviated by having first-class functions (or lambdas, as many OO languages nowadays have). Some of the patterns can employ first-class functions (e.g. an observer could be just a callback function reference), but the pattern as such remains.
          • throwway120385 5 hours ago
            The language feature isn't "passing and returning functions" but "loose coupling." Lambdas and Functors are just a way to represent that in OOP languages that care more about inheritance than about messaging.
          • gavmor 6 hours ago
            A lot of patterns have become frameworks, or language features, yes. It's just paving cowpaths.
          • irishcoffee 6 hours ago
            Are you referring to function pointers?

            I believe C has allowed passing and returning functions from... the jump, no?

            • scott_w 6 hours ago
              I recall a lot of this comes from Java 5/6 where I think passing function pointers around was difficult, if not impossible. Back in those days, I had many a conversation with a friend who would ask "can Python do pattern/feature X?" to which I'd respond "it doesn't need to."
            • ndriscoll 6 hours ago
              Not just function pointers. E.g. in Scala:

                  def addX(x: Int): Function[Int,Int] = {
                      y => x+y
                  }
              
              addX(5) then returns a function that adds 5. So closures, which are equivalent to objects (behind the scenes, the compiler needs to allocate a structure to remember that 5 and know the "member function" to call to do the plus), and usually more straightforward.

              Once you get used to doing this, you realize it's useful everywhere.

              In a decent language with functional programming and generics support a lot of GoF patterns can be directly encoded as a simple type signature where you receive, return, or both some function, so there's not really much else to say about them. Like half of the behavioral patterns become variations of the interpreter pattern.

              • irishcoffee 5 hours ago
                Pardon my ignorance, isn't that a lambda in c++?
                • ndriscoll 5 hours ago
                  Yes, and in Java and other languages (e.g. in Lean you can literally use the syntax λ x ↦ x + 5). When OOP was more of the zeitgeist, these languages didn't have lambda functions.
            • DauntingPear7 5 hours ago
              You can return function pointers but not first class functions, which means you can’t do closures and other FP things in C
        • throwway120385 6 hours ago
          Design Patterns is more like the Human Factors and Ergonomics Handbook.

          You can have your building engineered, in which case building walls out of 2x6's 16 inches on center is not off the table, but neither is a mortise and tenon timber frame with partition walls. In that paradigm, the code tries not to be descriptive of an exact technique but only gives you criteria to satisfy. For example you could run all of your electrical wiring on the outside of the walls or on the outside of the building, and you could use ramps instead of staircases. It only talks about ingress and egress for fire safety, and it explains how you're supposed to encase wires, or if wires are not encased it describes the way the wiring must be sheathed to protect the occupants.

          You can heat your house entirely with an open fire, and the code speaks to how to do that safely. So it's unlike "design patterns" in a lot of ways in that the code tries to accommodate the kinds of buildings we try to build and the ways in which we modify buildings because that's easier than saying "these are all the allowed ways of building an entry staircase." Design Patterns are more in the latter category.

          • layer8 5 hours ago
            I disagree with that take. Design patterns are a language for (= give standard names to) patterns that tend to repeatedly occur in code, so that we can efficiently communicate about them. Programmers working in the respective contexts tend to reinvent them sooner or later if they don’t know them already, so it makes sense to circulate the knowledge about them. But that doesn’t mean that they are prescriptive.
      • hibikir 6 hours ago
        OOP pattern were useful for people stuck in a pure OOP language (say Java 1.4) And needed to make something understandable. Today, when many languages, including Java, have reasonable functional programming support, a large percentage of the patterns are over complicated. Just look at the list, and see how many can be replaced with less boilerplate by passing a function, doing some currying, or both.
        • bluGill 5 hours ago
          That doesn't replace the pattern, it just does the pattern by a different name. Design Patterns was never about OOP - the publisher added OO to the title because that was the fad at the time, but the patterns happen in other systems as well, they are just implemented differently.
      • rdevilla 6 hours ago
        I agree. Mostly they are copes for lack of first-class functions and multiple dispatch. Go through GoF and you will see this is the case for 80% of the patterns.

        OOP has no firm theoretical foundation, unlike FP which is rooted in the formalisms of mathematics.

        • red_admiral 5 hours ago
          Ok, I'm in an argumentative mood, and I think this is more true than not.

          The first theoretical foundation of OOP is structural induction. If you design a class such that (1) the constructor enforces an invariant and (2) every public method maintains that invariant, then by induction it holds all the time. The access modifiers on methods help formalise and enforce that. You can do something similar in a functional language, or even in C if you're disciplined (especially with pointers), but it was an explicit design goal of the C++/Java/C# strand of OOP to anchor that in the language.

          The second theoretical foundation is subtyping or Liskov substitution, a bit of simple category theory - which gets you things like contravariance on return types and various calculi depending on how your generics work. Unfortunately the C++ people decided to implement the idea with subclassing which turned out to be a mess, whereas interface subtyping gets you what you probably wanted in the first place, and still gives you formalisms like Array[T] <= Iterable[S] for any S >= T (or even X[T] <= Y[S] for S >= T and X[_] <= Y[_] if you define subtyping on functors). In Java nowadays you have a Consumer<T> that acts as a (side-effectful) function (T => void) but composes with a Consumer<? super T> to get the type system right [1].

          Whether most Java/OOP programmers realise the second point is another question.

          [1] https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/21/docs/api/java.base...

      • glitchc 6 hours ago
        Why is OOP lumped with Clean Code? Objects are useful for managing complex states and relationships. They are complementary, not mutually exclusive, to procedural and functional programming.
        • array_key_first 4 hours ago
          Usually when people refer to OOP they don't mean encapsulation, although that's the core tenant of OOP. Encapsulation, private and public etc is a given. Usually they're talking about the other OOP stuff, like inheritance. Inheritance is pretty much bad and is the wrong abstraction for 90% of stuff.
        • kdfjgbdfkjgb 6 hours ago
          I think they meant "OOP patterns". Not that I agree with them
      • Aeolun 6 hours ago
        When applied without thinking about why. Yes.

        Except dependency injection. I really can’t imagine why you’d ever not use that. I suppose it’s possible to overuse, but you’d still have better code than without. Certainly more testable code.

        • Scarblac 6 hours ago
          Because code becomes harder to understand.

          With direct dependencies, if you are trying to understand some code that calls some function and what it does exactly isn't completely obvious, you can press a button to go to it, understand it, and come back.

          With dependency injection it depends on what is going to be inserted during runtime, so you can't.

          • 9rx 5 hours ago
            If you can press a button to understand what is going on, "it’s possible to overuse" most definitely applies. Dependency injection, as the name implies, is for dealing with dependencies — things that you cannot observe until runtime.

            Hence the benefit to testing; allowing you to inject a deterministic implementation while under test.

        • layer8 5 hours ago
          Unless you mean just regular constructor parameters, dependency injection in the sense of a runtime dependency injection framework is the one thing I try to avoid like the plague.
          • oldestofsports 3 hours ago
            That is called a "DI Container", and usually manages the objects and order of instantiation etc.

            Dependency injection simply means to take objects as parameters, and not instantiate them themselves (which causes "Inversion of Control" also commonly mentioned when talking about DI). DI Containers just makes the managing of objects easier.

            Avoiding it like a plague seems excessive, did you have a bad experience with them?

            • layer8 1 hour ago
              When Martin Fowler coined the term Dependency Injection [0], that was specifically for the context of container instrumentation. Merely passing service objects as constructor parameters is more akin to the Strategy pattern. At least in the Java world where it originated, “dependency injection” has always been about wiring application components and services together at runtime based on configuration, often directly injecting the dependencies into object fields via reflection, and not about statically compiled constructor invocations that happen to pass service objects.

              [0] https://martinfowler.com/articles/injection.html

      • delecti 6 hours ago
        I worked with a junior dev who suddenly got really excited about Clean Code. Every example he brought up left me feeling that there was a kernel of good advice, but the book wanted you to take it to such an extreme that it would result in shitty code.
        • jghn 5 hours ago
          > there was a kernel of good advice, but the book wanted you to take it to such an extreme that it would result in shitty code

          I see you're familiar with Uncle Bob's handiwork

        • oldestofsports 3 hours ago
          It strongly pushes for max 3 LOC per function, and I am not even joking.
        • ansgri 6 hours ago
          I feel like half of junior programmers are susceptible to this.
        • teddyh 5 hours ago
          There is now a second edition of that book which has supposedly been rewritten to fix that.
      • SoftTalker 4 hours ago
        Most of OOP and design patterns was yet another attempt to make it possible for lower-ability (i.e. cheaper) developers to be productive. Just like dimensional lumber and standards like "wall studs are spaced 16 inches on center" made it possible for a lower-ability carpenter to frame a house and have everything fit together properly. Though in the latter case, it actually was successful.
        • PunchyHamster 4 hours ago
          Nah, the engineering standards like that generally make everyone's job easier; the "pro" carpenter will save just as much time as the newbie, hell maybe more.

          Design patents are more of "you need to build house with this exact room layout" than "the materials and ways to put them together are standarized"

        • mikkupikku 4 hours ago
          There's a strong element of that, but there's more to it. It is to the advantage of management that even their experienced developers all speak the same design language, if only because this makes any individual developer easier to replace. Corps don't want a situation where the whole company is hanging off one brilliant programmer's completely impenetrable code. TempleOS is awesome, but not for businesses.
      • exceptione 5 hours ago
        I think you can safely omit 'maybe'. OOP is harder and requires more design experience to achieve good results than functional programming. I welcome you to look at OOP code from people who don't get the patterns.

        OOP can be wonderful, but the people who aren't able to step up a level in conceptual abstraction should really not touch it. Remember, for many years languages like Java didn't have any concept of lambda's and higher order functions, so design patterns were essential for elegant solutions. As they say, a design pattern is a symptom of the language being not expressive enough. In other words, many design patterns in OOP languages express the same thing as first-class language features in the functional paradigm would do, Visitor vs fold for instance.

      • t43562 6 hours ago
        I think it's more the idea that if using a pattern is good then using all of them at once is even better.
      • hsuduebc2 6 hours ago
        I believe it's more like formal letter, or prefilled form where you only fill data when required. It actually can be useful.
      • joe_mamba 6 hours ago
        > but I believe a lot of OOP/Clean Code patterns are the software equivalent of corporate BS.

        They're the corporate equivalent of USSR soviet style conformism, when everyone had to call each other comrade and refusal to do that had repercussions.

        Similarly, if you say you refuse to follow the Agile/Scrum manifesto or clean code practices, you get ousted, as that's Haram/not-Kosher in this racket.

        I still wonder how Valve manage to ship Half Life without Agile or clean code practices.

    • lo_zamoyski 5 hours ago
      That's not quite accurate. Formal languages (which have an old pedigree) can be useful for clarification and inference, but they can also obfuscate the truth, and what's more, subvert it. Every logical formalism necessarily presupposes some metaphysics, and if the metaphysics is bad, or you fail to recognize the effective bounds of that formalism, you can fall into mechanically generated bullshit. Modern predicate logic suffers from known paradoxes and permits nonsensical and vacuous inferences (like those caused by material implication). More subtle effects are expressed in, for example, the problem of bare particulars.

      Formalism is a product of prior (semantic) reasoning that isn't formal. And because formalism is syntactic, not only can you still jam your semantic nonsense through it (through incoherent subjects and predicates, for example), but the formalism, stripped of semantics, can itself allow for nonsense. So formalism can actually aid and abet bad reasoning. The danger, of course, is the mistaken notion that "formal = rigorous".

      Formalism is also highly impractical and tedious in many circumstances, and it can depart from human reasoning as expressed in the grammar of natural language enough to be practically inscrutable. There is no reason why natural language cannot be clear and well-written. So, I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree here.

      The problem with LLMs isn't that they're not "formal". It's because they're statistical machines, not reasoning machines, yet many people treat them like magical oracles.

    • jancsika 5 hours ago
      > a system for turning bullshit into parse errors

      Because when I go to view an old website from the 90s that's missing a closing tag for something, I don't want the content-- I want a big red XML parse error with a gigantic horizontal scrollbar.

      The history of programmers blithely attempting to add new parsing errors to existing problems instead of obviating them is long and storied. Your sentence would look right at home as part of the BS generated for the test subjects from the article.

    • adampunk 3 hours ago
      You seem nice
    • AreShoesFeet000 6 hours ago
      There are no natives anymore. For some time, really. Honestly I don’t even think there ever were.
  • kevinsync 6 hours ago
    Last time I worked corporate, we were acquired and I was asked what my job was by somebody on the other side. I said “My job is to make you feel good about whatever it is that I may or may not be doing around this place.”

    Despite it being a joke, I think there’s a lot of truth in there that explains corp-tongue -- from being visible in endless meetings to in-group parlance to cutthroat promotion tracks, a lot of corporate America boils down to narrative, storytelling and performance more than booking sensible profit and delivering the very best to client and user. This type of language and expression is a major tool for making people feel good about your actual, contestable value in an organization.

    It’s both kabuki and kayfabe lol

    • darreninthenet 5 hours ago
      As a highly experienced consultant once said to me, forget all the objectives, priorities and corporate culture bullshit, whatever anyone tells you, your job is to make your boss look good.
    • wmeredith 3 hours ago
      It's called busy-ness for a reason.
  • jimnotgym 4 hours ago
    In a discussion yesterday about a large and complex physical system that is hard to optimise further without more work for it to do (lots of excess capacity), the VP suggested we should 'consider how emergent technologies could be leveraged to decrease overhead'. It is a clever way to say, I have no ideas either, but if a better machine that hasn't been invented yet becomes available we should use that'. I say 'clever', because the other execs nodded in approval, and agreed. From other conversations I have had with him I was just glad he didn't say 'AI' as per usual, although I am in two minds as to whether he did actually mean AI, but thought he had said it too many times in the last week. I'm not popular because I ask difficult things like, what kind of AI?
    • dkarl 4 hours ago
      Bullshit is so dangerous because it could mean something. That VP could mean, it's time to look beyond the set of mature technologies we've been considering and look at newer technologies that we would normally ignore because they come with risks and rough edges and higher cost of ownership.

      So it might be a substantive decision that affects how everybody in the room will do their jobs going forward. Or it could be a random stream of words chosen because they sound impressive, which everyone will nod respectfully at and then ignore. And like an LLM, he might have made it into his current position without needing to know the difference.

      • jimnotgym 2 hours ago
        Correct, and in my opinion we seem to have a cutting edge machine, the best available. So it was BS. What was really troubling them is that for years the operational delivery part of the business has saved everyone else by finding more and more effiencies. I had stated that it was no longer cost effective to spend the money on the diminishing returns of squeezing tiny %s more out of it. The room took on a complete silence, because their strategy (of leaving it to someone else) has gone. Much harder tasks, what goes through the machine, how it is sold, need to come to the fore... and that is terrifying for people who PowerPoint for a living... so instead, they break the silence with BS, nod, pretend it's not happening.
  • garethsprice 2 hours ago
    The headline says these workers "might be bad at their jobs," but considered in the context of Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" thesis - that a huge chunk of white-collar work is pointless make-work for surplus labor - then in a hierarchy that rewards BS-fluency (which Littrell speculates), they are actually _good_ at their jobs.

    The study measures analytic thinking as a proxy for performance, but that is only the right metric if the organization rewards individuals on the basis of their ability to make good decisions. Which anyone who has spent time in a corporate setting will know is often far from the route to success in such a setting, regardless of what the organization would say.

    If your role has no concrete output and your organization rewards BS-fluency, you need a jargon that performs productivity without being too specific - so this argot isn't useless, it maintains a hierarchy that the BS-fluent can be promoted through. Not so much a rising tide but a blocked toilet backing up through the org chart. And BS-receptive workers are more satisfied with their jobs, because by their organization's actual values (versus whatever might be written in the mission statement), they're succeeding.

    The BS-intolerant and analytically competent are less satisfied because they're the ones running into the blockers that the BS is covering for - or working through them only to discover that there's no tangible work to do under all the jargon.

    The takeaway for me is: if you're interviewing somewhere and the hiring manager starts talking about "actualizing synergistic paradigms" instead of telling you concretely what the team shipped last quarter, it is likely one of those organizations. Places that can tell you plainly what they do are the places where your work will matter.

  • foundart 5 hours ago
    A good takeaway line from the article:

    > Rather than a ‘rising tide lifting all boats,’ a higher level of corporate BS in an organization acts more like a clogged toilet of inefficiency.”

    and a link to the paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/400597536_The_Corpo...

  • VorpalWay 7 hours ago
    How was this a surprise to anyone with more than three braincells?

    But I guess it is good to have this study to point to in your workplace, instead of just seeing that it is self evident.

    • throawayonthe 6 hours ago
      i don't think it's that self-evident - many people believe on some level that these hierarchies (like in the workplace i mean), so i think it can be useful to point out the self-reinforcing bs-generating structure and that bullshit from above is still bullshit
  • dlcarrier 4 hours ago
    This is what offices exist for. In fields where efficiency matters, you end up with contractors, working remotely, getting paid by the project, and not being tied to one company. This is how lots of engineering and architecture works as well as many other fields.

    In a work environment dominated by office social situations, language plays a key role in establishing social status, but there are other forms of posturing, with promotions generally based more on social status than job performance, reinforcing the social hierarchy. Technical buzzwords aren't even the only kind of jargon used in this manor, there's often an entire litany of language used outside of the job functions themselves. For example, human resources has its own language rules.

    The author has come across this phenomenon and is attributing it to language alone, but there is far more involved here.

  • ekjhgkejhgk 7 hours ago
    These headlines are crack for HN.
    • DrewADesign 7 hours ago
      Sure, but it’s not clickbait. It accurately reflects the article content, and seemingly, the discussed study’s results.
      • butILoveLife 5 hours ago
        The Karl Popper in me says: Its barely useful science because its not falsifiable.

        Its like a horoscope, it applies to everyone.

        Its closer to a tautology "Its raining or its not" than a contradiction "Its raining and its not".

        The closer to contradiction limits the possible realities, which makes it better science.

        Imagine if I said "People who skip breakfast are worse at their jobs". Its so vague, its always true.

        • delecti 5 hours ago
          How is it not falsifiable? They found a correlation between susceptibility to bullshit and the result of a previously established cognitive tests.

          > Imagine if I said "People who skip breakfast are worse at their jobs". Its so vague, its always true.

          That's a terrible example of your point. As long as you can define a metric for "worse at their jobs" (it'll vary a ton based on which job we're talking about, but it still sounds like something you could assign a metric to) then you have a really clear and testable hypothesis.

          • butILoveLife 4 hours ago
            You have the word 'falsifiable' backwards.

            >it'll vary a ton based on which job we're talking about, but it still sounds like something you could assign a metric to

            This is the problem, you didn't you can find 100000000 ways for it to be correct. 'They didn't eat breakfast, and they spent 1 second on HN. Therefore breakfast would have been better.'

        • throwawaysleep 4 hours ago
          > Imagine if I said "People who skip breakfast are worse at their jobs". Its so vague, its always true.

          As long as you can define some measure of "worse at their jobs", which corporations routinely do, this seems like an easy thing to falsify.

          Go get employee eval scores and poll everyone on whether they eat breakfast.

    • ivl 7 hours ago
      It's like crack, but for being able to be a little derogatory to the masses.

      Certainly not as unhealthy as crack.

    • alexc05 6 hours ago
      that's a bit of a meta discussion and it'd probably reveal some super interesting things about how tech culture have changed in the last ~15 years.

      I've been on HN since 2010 (lost the password to my first account, alexc04) and I recall a time when it felt like every second article on the front-page was an bold directive pronouncement or something just aggressively certain of its own correctness.

      Like "STOP USING BASH" or "JQUERY IS STUPID" - not in all caps of course but it created an unpleasant air and tone (IMO, again, this is like 16 years ago now so I may have memory degredation to some extent)

      Things like donglegate got real traction here among the anti-woke crew. There have been times where the venn diagram of 4chan and hackernews felt like it had a lot more overlap. I've even bowed out of discussion for years at a time or developed an avoidance reaction to HN's toxic discussion culture.

      IMO it has been a LOT better in more recent years, but I also don't dive as deep as I used to.

      ANYWAYS - my point is I would be really interested to see a sentiment analysis of HN headlines over the years to try and map out cultural epochs of the community.

      When has HN swayed more into the toxic and how has it swayed back and forth as a pendulum over time? (or even has it?)

      I wonder what other people's perspective is of how the culture here has changed over time. I truly think it feels a lot more supportive than it used to.

    • stephbook 3 hours ago
      Understandable. None of us is one of those sheeple! /s
  • Esophagus4 5 hours ago
    There does exist some purpose for corp-speak: it is a shared language for people in disparate parts of a large organization to communicate with. It is a tool, mostly for managers.

    Managers use it with peers because their job is coordination and communication.

    Managers shouldn’t talk to their reports in corp-speak, but think of it like a shared protocol for all messages in the corporate message bus.

    • ta988 5 hours ago
      But how much of that is real as in has measurable positive impact vs random decision making.
      • Esophagus4 2 hours ago
        That sounds like a problem with the people producing and consuming the messages, not a problem with the protocol itself :)
    • persedes 5 hours ago
      Agreed, I think it also acts as a hiring filter to scan for candidates that have been exposed to this kind of language and can speak it fluently. The bigger the cooperation, the more widespread that is though, don't see it as often in mid sized companies. Was looking into a director role at a large org and there were lots of very new words thrown at me very quickly.
    • vjvjvjvjghv 4 hours ago
      You may be right but often I feel it’s a tool to sound confident while at the same time having no idea what they are doing.
  • aljgz 59 minutes ago
    Seems to be hugged to death. Link from The Wayback Machine:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20260302211051/https://news.corn...

  • Animats 1 hour ago
    Corporate jargon is a relatively recent development in business history.[1] It wasn't seen much until the 1950s and 1960s, when "organization development" and management consulting became an industry. Peter Drucker seems to have popularized it in the 1980s.

    Then came PowerPoint.

    Before that it was more of a political and religious style of communication. In those areas, speeches and texts designed to be popular but not commit to much dominate. Religious texts are notorious for their ambiguity.

    The point seems to be to express authority without taking responsibility.

    [1] https://www.rivier.edu/academics/blog-posts/circling-back-on...

    • pessimizer 15 minutes ago
      I absolutely think that this is the result of the chaotic formation of a bizarre American religion (that is largely universal among the world's "middle class" now.) It's Silva Mind Control -> Leadership Dynamics -> Holiday Magic, Scientology, Large Group Awareness Training (as you can still see in the Landmark Forum), Synanon, etc.; mixed up in a pot with hippie language/consciousness raising, 70s-80s spiritual self-help Carlos Castaneda and Jane Roberts/Seth neo-Spiritualism; all banged in with garbled Cybernetics, RAND corporation papers, military operations jargon and the 70s-80s obsession with personal physical fitness and orthorexia.

      In the end, you just have this universal language to justify and excuse power and blame victims for being weak enough to be victimized. Powerful people move with the energy flow and direct it, and weak people move against it, twist it, and are twisted by it. Mastery of this makes money and happiness flow towards you, and resistance to it makes money and happiness flow away from you.

      Very convenient moral calculus for people who inherited money and hand it to people who do what they say. Convenient justification to do anything that pays, no matter how corrupt and harmful. If it were really harmful, it wouldn't pay in the end. And isn't everything harmful, in a way, to some extent?

      In the 80s, you start to see books laying out fairly incoherent systems for total personal, business and societal organization, but the premises are really drawn from all of the previous nonsense. It's easy to say it's stupid, but leading into this time (and dying during this time along with its practitioners) the overwhelmingly dominant psychological theory was the cynical word salad of Freudian psychoanalysis. This stuff was honestly more based in the real world.

      > Before that it was more of a political and religious style of communication.

      This is the time when the terminology was finally settling. There was to be a new priesthood of consultants. Tbh, I don't think that it's designed to be popular, it's designed to supply language to justify predatory acts. This was also the rise of the "think tank," which came to dominate society through writing laws and supplying the language to help politicians deliver for their donors.

      I still think that the real harm was done by the popularization of Freud, training the public to speak about the real world in speculative, scientistic, psychological terms. This sort of management language just washes over people trained not to ever verify their theory-theories against any sort of real outcomes (i.e. Freud), other than the post hoc justification of wealth.

      My father went into "organizational development" in the late-80s at Allstate Insurance. Bringing this all full-circle, it turned out he was also being trained in crypto-Scientology: https://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/allstate2.html

      Sorry about the rant, it might come off as word salad. I wish it was.

  • NoSalt 6 hours ago
    "synergistic leadership" or "growth-hacking paradigms" are, in my opinion, what my teenage son refers to as "brain rot". I don't know where these people come from who make up these terms, or what childhood trauma has done this to them, but I absolutely cannot tolerate any of it, it makes my skin crawl.
    • hibikir 6 hours ago
      It's a bit better: They are forms of obfuscation and lowering information in a channel. They are designed for environments where being clear is very risky. In certain organizations, you are better off being unclear than asking for approval or consensus on a tricky decision: You produce an incomprehensible, vague mess of a message, and avoid argument, as argument in those places leads to paralysis.

      Now, does this mean it's the right way to talk everywhere? Of course not. And since it's often seen as safe, it's overused. But it doesn't just arise, as a bug. plain language that means what it says creates more conflict, and isn't always better.

      • dasil003 5 hours ago
        There’s also a compounding effect. Even though they tend to be a bit hand-wavy, you can use the words synergy or paradigm in a sentence and still have it confer some kind of meaning. However as soon as you utter the phrase “synergistic paradigm” you are obviously and completely full of shit.

        Also a lot of corporate jargon does have specific connotations for skilled communicators to send a message that is seemingly polite but is actually saying something controversial that is picked up only by those in the room savvy enough to understand. In skilled hands it’s very useful, in unskilled hands it’s complete gibberish. In many ways that’s a feature as the clueless cargo-culters quickly out themselves, and then the smart leaders can use that knowledge to route around them or deploy them in non-harmful ways. All without any overt confrontation ever taking place.

  • hmokiguess 3 hours ago
    Reminds me of how a Plumbus is made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWMGd_rzRdY
  • donohoe 6 hours ago
    Its describing every second LinkedIn post, no?
    • Esophagus4 5 hours ago
      LinkedIn is the worst purgatory world of this study for sure.
  • xg15 3 hours ago
    > “By getting our friends in the tent with our best practices, we will pressure-test a renewed level of adaptive coherence.”

    That's what she said.

  • dchest 6 hours ago
    Note that this isn't a study of actual workplaces, it's based on cognitive tests, so "bad at their jobs" may be a stretch. For example, "overconfidence in one's intellectual and analytic abilities" may be good for business, e.g. when dealing with US government contracts in 2026.
  • ekholm_e 4 hours ago
    George Orwell wrote about this 80 years ago: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...
  • eel 6 hours ago
    Corporate BS is the topic I want to study if I ever pursue a PhD. Not only BS that is directed from the top down, but also BS from the bottom and laterally. I'm curious what in corporate culture allows it to grow and what slows it. I also wonder if it's always bad or if it's beneficial in small amounts.

    Anecdotally I have seen BS used to delay or avoid making commitments. BS can mask someone's lack of knowledge, or lack of execution. Middle managers seem to be the position to squash or spread BS. They often have a hard time detecting BS because they are too far from the work. When I think back to the best Directors and skip-level managers I have had in my career, they were all great BS detectors. They didn't let smooth talkers in their organization rise based on BS alone. They didn't let dependencies wriggle out of their commitments based on BS.

  • tantaman 3 hours ago
    This has been proven out again and again in my experience. Going as far back as being a student advisor in college. Any time I would run into someone using these words (in advising sessions, interviews, casual conversation), the speaker had no further depth when pressed on the topic they were trying to wave at.
  • reedlaw 5 hours ago
    Isn't this the premise behind Dilbert?
  • dasil003 3 hours ago
    I feel like this study is very naive about how corporate status and power works. Consider this part:

    > Employees who are more likely to fall for corporate bullshit may help elevate the types of dysfunctional leaders who are more likely to use it

    The rank and file don't elevate leaders, it's decided by higher-ups, and the higher you go the more they care about actual non-bullshit results. Where bullshit thrives is because higher level business strategy is actually hard and ambiguous, so there's a continuum of bullshit where you are expected to at least say credible things, but it's couched in bullshit terminology to broaden the range of success they can claim, and leave room and plausable deniability for failures. Strong leaders are keenly aware of this nuance, and therefore leaders are judged on reputation and outcomes over time, because any given thing they say may be wrong, but the track record is undeniable. This is why you never hear a bad word about leaders while they are there, they are just fired (or more likely "resign") one day seemingly out of the blue.

    What this article misses is that to survive in a corporate environment everyone needs to put up and nod along to bullshit. Most of the time whether it's right or wrong and the level of bullshit doesn't really matter to most of the employees, they're just incentivized to play along and not express negativity. Within the rank and file, obviously some are more susceptible to bullshit than others, but I don't think this study necessarily gets at that, as a lot of people will act agreeable just to survive in corporate life, and their disposition will be largely independent of their true understanding and feelings about whatever bullshit they are presented with day to day.

  • 2b3a51 3 hours ago
  • billfor 4 hours ago
    The original buzzword generator for palmOS. I used it extensively: https://archive.org/details/palm3_buzzword
  • RobotToaster 7 hours ago
    To analyse the impact of this study I recommend that we set up an interdepartmental committee with fairly broad terms of reference so that at the end of the day we'll be in the position to think through the various implications and arrive at a decision based on long-term considerations rather than rush prematurely into precipitate and possibly ill-conceived action which might well have unforeseen repercussions.
    • Esophagus4 5 hours ago
      Excellent idea!

      And the best part is that while we’re talking about making a decision, we won’t have to actually do any real work.

    • sanex 6 hours ago
      Let’s amplify this visionary perspective. This is exactly the caliber of commentary we should be encouraging more of on HN.
      • Intermernet 6 hours ago
        No, we need to move forward into the retrospective.
    • sillywabbit 6 hours ago
      Rushing prematurely into precipitate does sound pretty dangerous.
    • Aeolun 6 hours ago
      Translation: Lets think about it before we do stupid shit.
      • Clent 6 hours ago
        Outcome: Fail to think about it, only do stupid shit.
  • Traster 7 hours ago
    Isn't this just the obvious conclusion you would expect going in? Corporate bullshit is meant to sound impressive whilst simultaneously either saying nothing, or hiding the real meaning.

    Synergy is a great example - what the person saying it hopes you understand is that Paramount Skydance and Warner Bros have a complimentary set of skills that when put together will be more profitable. What they actually mean is that when we merge these two companies we're going to have two sets of sales teams, two sets of marketing teams, two production teams, two sets of HR, accounts, back office etc. And so we're going to be more efficient because everyone I just mentioned is going to be fired.

    So yeah of course, the intent is to trick you and the likelihood of success is (inversely) proportional to how smart you are and it turns out if you're smart you probably also do other parts of your job well.

  • LowLevelKernel 1 hour ago
    Doesn’t your brain tune out those words?
  • phkahler 6 hours ago
    “Employees who are more likely to fall for corporate bullshit may help elevate the types of dysfunctional leaders who are more likely to use it, creating a sort of negative feedback loop.

    Technically that's a positive feedback loop, or reinforcing feedback loop. The author is probably using "negative" in to mean undesirable. Gotta get your jargon right!

    • RobotToaster 6 hours ago
      You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.
  • johnisgood 2 hours ago
    What does it mean to be "impressed" by such terms?
  • inaros 5 hours ago
    Workers who spend all day posting on LinkedIn might be bad at their jobs...
  • rambojohnson 5 hours ago
    Actually disagree. Based on the last 20 years of my experience in corporate America, “practical decision-making” was never part of the job at any level of leadership.
  • eucyclos 6 hours ago
    I thought tfa would say seeking synergy is a sign one is struggling with ones own deliverables so one tries to add value elsewhere in the organization. Is synergy really such a poorly defined term that it's synonymous with corporate bullshit?
    • VorpalWay 6 hours ago
      Yes. (There are other phrases too that should be red flags such as "strategizing", but "synergy" is probably the poster child).
      • encom 6 hours ago
        >other phrases

        "Pipeline". I hate this so much. At a previous job, it was used so much by management it became a meme on the production floor. When asked how many units had been sold, there was always a big number in the pipeline, when the real actual number was zero.

        It's a non-commitment word. Whatever is talked about may or may not happen or exist. Maybe it's ignorance or a straight up lie to shut up the people on the floor, but "pipeline" works maybe once or twice and then everyone is onto your bullshit.

    • zbentley 6 hours ago
      Yes. In a huge majority of cases, I’ve seen it used as a weasely, subjective synonym for “more than one thing being done”.
    • Hamuko 6 hours ago
      I feel like "synergy" has been the poster child for corporate buzzwords.
  • thewillowcat 5 hours ago
    Engineers, I am so sorry. They are still going to be your bosses.
  • reedf1 7 hours ago
    There is a grotesquely pulsing layer of overconfident dumbasses in business (and society in general) and this is the language they speak. My job at any company, as far as I can see it, is to make sure my local orbit is cleared of these wackos. They are parasitic extractors of value and soul.
    • newyankee 7 hours ago
      Operational jobs are filled with these though. Not saying they are bad at work but the corporate culture leads to this language and style overwhelming everyone else and rising to the top
    • Aeolun 6 hours ago
      It works perfectly! You can become the president of the (debatably) most powerful nation on earth by employing it successfully.
  • languagehacker 5 hours ago
    Twaddling and puffery!
  • andai 6 hours ago
    I found this title amusing, since I'm actually synergizing paradigms, i.e. trying to find the commonalities between different models of human behavior.

    (There are dozens of us!)

    • Intermernet 6 hours ago
      Yes, but have you decoded the ontological kerygma of the gestalt. No point synergizing paradigms unless you've got the kerygma sorted.
    • dghf 6 hours ago
      Wouldn't that be synthesising paradigms?
      • andai 2 hours ago
        Crap, you're right! The goal is synthesis. Can we distil a bunch of models down to something more fundamental and elegant.
    • oniony 6 hours ago
      This sounds very impressive ;)
  • masfuerte 7 hours ago
    In summary, employees who are impressed by corporate bullshit do badly on tests of analytic intelligence. This is very unsurprising.
  • sharadov 4 hours ago
    When you can't convince, confuse is how you sum up corporate speak.
  • iamacyborg 6 hours ago
    On the bright side, it's nice that a significant number of these folks self-select by moving to Dubai.
  • DrBazza 4 hours ago
    > “Corporate bullshit is a specific style of communication that uses confusing, abstract buzzwords in a functionally misleading way,” said Littrell, a postdoctoral researcher in the College of Arts and Sciences. “Unlike technical jargon, which can sometimes make office communication a little easier, corporate bullshit confuses rather than clarifies. It may sound impressive, but it is semantically empty.”

    Modern politics by a different name. The parallels are obvious, along with the Peter Principle and so on.

    Lots of people on here saying 'that's not me', but probably say 'ping me back' or 'learnings' which is very much one end of the spectrum of corporate bullshit that infects everyone. Some of it is stupidity (the English language has a word: 'lessons'), some of it is natural language evolution, and some of it is 'global' English: 'please revert', and some of it is very intentional management waffle. As the (unviersity) saying goes, 'if you can't blind 'em with science, baffle them with bullshit'.

  • oytis 7 hours ago
    Happy to see that the term "bullshit" has established itself in the scientific literature.
  • drob518 2 hours ago
    So, it wasn’t my imagination.
  • Nevermark 5 hours ago
    But can you blame them? Just say it! “Synergizing paradigms!”

    Poetry inaction!

  • zoke 4 hours ago
    In hypnosis terms, this is confusion induction.
  • gzread 4 hours ago
    This is very relevant to the LLM era.
  • wiradikusuma 5 hours ago
    So I guess this is a double-edged test.

    "Hmm, I want to hire people who fail CBSR test, I'll look like god to them. F*ck critical thinkers, I only need slightly above average people anyway."

  • loganc2342 3 hours ago
    > To test this, he created a “corporate bullshit generator” that churns out meaningless but impressive-sounding sentences like, "We will actualize a renewed level of cradle-to-grave credentialing” and “By getting our friends in the tent with our best practices, we will pressure-test a renewed level of adaptive coherence.”

    So you’re saying people who thought randomly-generated, meaningless sentences sound smart aren’t themselves smart? Who would’ve thought.

  • beepbooptheory 2 hours ago
  • Illniyar 2 hours ago
    I hate these studies. They make such bold claims and then when you dig deeper they basically gave a few students some questionuerre with leading questions and then claim they figured out how people work.
  • hsuduebc2 5 hours ago
    >Overall, the findings suggest that while “synergizing cross-collateralization” might sound impressive in a boardroom, this functionally misleading language can create an informational blindfold in corporate cultures

    I believe this is the whole point. To confuse listeners and subtly manipulate them into thinking that they don't understand so they will stay quiet. Politicians do absolutely the same, in today's world it's called "smoke screen".

  • jimnotgym 5 hours ago
    I find it interesting how different companies have a different BS, that marks people as insiders. The insiders like to make the implication that it is the newcomer who is at fault, because they only know the real words for things. Slimey salesey newcomers pick up on it instantly.

    Often it is misuse of terms that actually have real meanings that annoy me most

  • quux 5 hours ago
    This article sparks joy
  • gostsamo 7 hours ago
    Won't forget from one of the Pratchett's book, where the word "synergy" was called a whore. Don't have the english edition of Going Postal handy to find the exact quote, but it was a glorious rant against a CEO's interview in the newspaper.
  • excalibur 3 hours ago
    > Employees who are impressed by vague corporate-speak like “synergistic leadership,” or “growth-hacking paradigms” may struggle with practical decision-making, a new Cornell study reveals.

    Hey, I find that type of lingo nauseating, and I still struggle with practical decision-making.

  • ericmay 7 hours ago
    “Might be bad at their jobs” was a very corporate speak way of saying they might be dumb.

    In case you missed that and were impressed by the bullshit language used. ;-)

  • bitwize 4 hours ago
    Corporate speak, as satirized in the Weird Al hit "Mission Statement", actually serves an important social function. It signals "I'm one of you, the business class, I will align my goals with those of the organization."

    It's like that phenomenon of, you have these British people, Hyacinth Bucket types. They want to be seen as upper class when they're not. So they speak in an overly polite register that they think makes them sound upper class. Actual aristocrats, by contrast, speak rather plainly amongst each other. They know where they are in society, and they know that everyone else who matters also knows.

    Similarly, the people who speak of operationalizing new strategies and leveraging core competencies are trying to sound impressive to those below, and like good little do bees to those above. The people who lead an organization to success speak in terms of the actual problems they encounter and the real things that need to be done to solve them.

  • johnsillings 6 hours ago

               SOCIOPATHS
                    │
            SOCIOPATHS WITH MBAs
                    │
          SOCIOPATHS WHO LIKE POWERPOINT
                    │
              OVERWORKED DOERS
                    │
                CONFUSED PEOPLE
                    │
                 LOSERS
    • pjerem 6 hours ago
      that's genius.
    • gherkinnn 5 hours ago
      I am growing comfortable with bouncing between the confused and the losers. In this model, anybody between the losers and sociopaths are the true suckers. I am no sociopath so I better make myself comfortable at the bottom of the barrel. More time for my own problems.
  • srean 6 hours ago
    There was a good corporate bullshit generator posted here in HN but probably before chatGPT became a thing. Can't seem to find it.

    Love ? That's for plebs. The right thing is to leverage wholistic synergizing paradigms.

  • elzbardico 3 hours ago
    In related news, water is wet and cats usually don't seem to feel confortable when sprayed with it.
  • c16 5 hours ago
    In other news, the grass is green and the sky is blue.
    • jimnotgym 4 hours ago
      Bluesky thinking about Greenfield projects, perhaps
  • Aeolun 6 hours ago
    You think?
  • semiinfinitely 3 hours ago
    deloitte
  • bell-cot 1 hour ago
    I'd view it as cargo cult competence. If we can just repeat the buzzwords and phrases enough times, with enough zeal, then everything will work out great.
  • throwpoaster 6 hours ago
    The trick in corporate environments is to watch for the people who respond well to this kind of speech and avoid/eject.

    The people who roll their eyes at corporate nonsense are your skunkworkers.

  • 0ckpuppet 4 hours ago
    this is a roadmap for the conniving lickspittles. Paired with the 48 laws of Power (and weak leadership), it's a winner.
  • lunias 5 hours ago
    Now the turbo encabulator on the other hand...
  • cess11 5 hours ago
    'The results revealed a troubling paradox. Workers who were more susceptible to corporate BS rated their supervisors as more charismatic and “visionary,” but also displayed lower scores on a portion of the study that tested analytic thinking, cognitive reflection and fluid intelligence. Those more receptive to corporate BS also scored significantly worse on a test of effective workplace decision-making.

    The study found that being more receptive to corporate bullshit was also positively linked to job satisfaction and feeling inspired by company mission statements. Moreover, those who were more likely to fall for corporate BS were also more likely to spread it.'

    How is this a paradox?

  • tamimio 6 hours ago
    This is known to everyone who worked with these corpo drones, that language is just to look smart and give the optics of being knowledgeable and professional, and it doesn’t end there, I also personally add to that anyone who jumps into XYZ bandwagon trend that are being used by popular silicon valley companies, like open office environment, scrum useless meetings, the forced harmony, daycare level team activities, among many more.

    And you can get the gist of that company or people during the interview actually.

  • stalfosknight 6 hours ago
    I have always been skeptical / disdainful of people who speak in corporate bullshit all the time. It's very tryhard and rather unnecessary in my view.
  • throwpoaster 7 hours ago
    I am shocked. Shocked! This is shocking /s
  • testfrequency 7 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • ranyume 6 hours ago
    The intention of these phrases is to "hack" into the inner-workings of the human brain, into how people create power structures. Legalese exists for a reason. Language is not just a tool for communication but a system that defines roles for people in a power structure.

    The phrases "Come here, boy!" and "Could you come here for a second?" have the same function, but the structure is inverted. Same for the phrases "I simplified the function so it's read easily" and "I made an strategic decision that enables robust scalability and growth". It all boils down to authority signaling.