On The <dl>

(benmyers.dev)

116 points | by ravenical 2 hours ago

19 comments

  • chrismorgan 36 minutes ago
    > <dl aria-label="Ability Scores">

    This is incorrect:

    1. <dl> has no corresponding (viz. implicit) role, but can be given the role group, list, none or presentation <https://w3c.github.io/html-aria/#el-dl>.

    2. You’re only allowed to define aria-label on elements that have a compatible role, implicit or explicit <https://w3c.github.io/html-aria/#docconformance-naming>.

    3. aria-label is allowed on all but a handful of roles <https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.2/#aria-label>, which in this case knocks out presentation and none, leaving group and list.

    4. group doesn’t feel right, list feels acceptable.

    In summary: either ditch the aria-label, or add role="list" (meaning also role="listitem" on children).

    —⁂—

    One thing the article misses is that you can have multiple <dt> in a row too, not just <dd>. The spec has a good example: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/grouping-content.html...

    They’re not name–value pairs, they’re name–value groups.

  • jimbosis 37 minutes ago
    The world's first website makes heavy use of <dl>s.

    https://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html

    https://info.cern.ch/ (A landing page of sorts to give context and orientation about the actual first website.)

  • captn3m0 1 hour ago
    > Prior to HTML5, this was called a definition list. This is because the <dl> was originally only intended to represent glossaries of terms and their definitions.

    TIL I’ve been naming it wrong for a decade.

    • jasonlotito 0 minutes ago
      TIL The name was changed from a definition list.
    • xp84 17 minutes ago
      I don’t want to check what year html5 was standardized because I think it may be north of a decade ;)
  • Demiurge 1 hour ago
    I love DL. I think tables, at least in the past, were misused as DLs even more in the past and the inconvenience of the table markup is even worse than a bunch of divs.
    • enriquto 43 minutes ago
      It's not that inconvenient if you omit unnecessary closing tags:

          <tr>
          <td> first
          <td> second
          <tr>
          <td> what
          <td> ever
      
      I find it simpler and cleaner than any of the markdown table markups
      • myfonj 10 minutes ago
        Fair point, though /DT and /DD are also optional just like /TH, /TD and /TR are. So in effect, def…scription list could structurally save you one TR for each entry and two "BLE"s:

            <table><tr><th>Term 1<td>Definition 1
                   <tr><th>Term 2<td>Definition 2
            </table>
            <dl><dt>Term 1<dd>Definition 1
                <dt>Term 2<dd>Definition 2
            </dl>
      • debesyla 39 minutes ago
        Isn't markdown table just a bunch of | ?
        • zufallsheld 37 minutes ago
          That's the problem.
          • froh 22 minutes ago
            most specifically the problem is that markdown tables don't allow breaking the table row in multiple lines

            but then you can always use HTML tables in markdown and Pandoc transforms it just fine

            • jazzypants 7 minutes ago
              Every markdown implementation is supposed to allow inline HTML.
    • egeozcan 30 minutes ago
      I always thought the DL as a single row of a table.
    • bdcravens 56 minutes ago
      You're right, but forcing tables to cosplay as DLs was far from the worst way that tables were abused.
      • sodapopcan 41 minutes ago
        At least <td>s could easily centre things vertically ;)
  • cloud-oak 1 hour ago
    The final example of the DnD statt sheet makes me think whether it's legal to nest <dl>s?

    I.e. can we do

        <dl>
          <dt>Actions</dt>
          <dd><dl>...</dl></dd>
        </dl>
  • shermantanktop 30 minutes ago
    The <dl> tag seems to cover a subset of a broad semantic space, but doesn’t easily extend beyond adding another <dd>.

    I dunno, I guess I’m a caveman. If it looks right and works (including accessibility) then I figure I’m pursuing something that doesn’t matter a lot.

  • simonw 1 hour ago
    Here's a useful note on how well screen readers support DL: https://adrianroselli.com/2025/01/updated-brief-note-on-desc...
  • michalc 1 hour ago
    The GOV.UK Design System summary list component is a description list https://design-system.service.gov.uk/components/summary-list...

    And... it also uses the wrapper div for styling

    • 9dev 40 minutes ago
      The wrapper div is making me a bit sad. These days, using grid layout, you don’t actually need it in most cases
  • rickstanley 1 hour ago
    I've used this a good amount of times, when I coded in front end projects. The first time gave me that satisfying feeling of using the right tool for the job, like completing a puzzle of HTML semantics. I remember JAWS not announcing it correctly in 2018, not sure if it's better now.
    • wizzwizz4 1 hour ago
      When I checked in 2024 or 2025, Windows Narrator announced it differently in Chrome, Firefox, Edge (Chromium mode) and Edge (IE mode), and none of them worked how I would expect them to. Adrian Roselli's verdict (https://adrianroselli.com/2025/01/updated-brief-note-on-desc...):

      > Description list support continues to be generally good (with VoiceOver still the outlier), even if you may not like how it is supported.

      You shouldn't try to fix this kind of thing by mangling the HTML, since (1) users tend to be used to their screen reader's quirks, and (2) in situations like these, making it juuuust right in one screen reader is likely to make it incomprehensible in another. But it is important to be aware of these quirks, so you don't accidentally design an interface that relies on less-quirky behaviour.

  • Telemakhos 1 hour ago
    I was a bit surprised to see nested <div>s given as some sort of precursor pattern, when <dl> was part of HTML before 2.0 back in the days of table layout.
  • tln 46 minutes ago
    > Admittedly, however, support for the <dl> element is not yet universal.

    Wait what? <DL> has been in HTML since.. the first draft in 1993!

    I like DL's but they can be challenging to style. This article is using a lot of fixed pixel widths which would break on really small screens or larger data.

    • jazzypants 5 minutes ago
      That line was referencing support for the <dl> element in accessibility software. The "yet" still doesn't make sense considering the timeline, but I think they were just being hopeful for future support.
  • phyzix5761 1 hour ago
    I'm curious if the spec actually says you can only wrap it with a div because I like to do semantic html and name my elements specific to my domain.
  • turtleyacht 2 hours ago
    Hoped to see CSS for the alternative, where <div> is not nested inside the <dl>. Too used to thinking of div as "layout containers."
  • gbeardish 1 hour ago
    What about multiple '&lt;dt&gt;' for one or more '&lt;dd&gt;'?
  • smitty1e 40 minutes ago
    This seems a clear enough win for things that would fit into a simple python dictionary.

    Why is it preferred over <table> for laying out columns via a the character attributes at the bottom of TFA?

  • mockbuild 58 minutes ago
    it's on archive html5 .flac 16-bit 44.1kHz no <dl> flag.
  • jdw64 1 hour ago
    blog looks beautiful. I really wish I had this kind of talent for frontend.
  • MattRix 1 hour ago
    Good title