Claude Code Is Steganographically Marking Requests

(thereallo.dev)

401 points | by kirushik 1 hour ago

41 comments

  • meowface 28 minutes ago
    Value judgment aside: I am a bit surprised at how sloppily they did this. I think they could've achieved the same effect while decreasing the odds of detection via reverse engineering like this.

    (This field is known as "underhanded code", coined by the Underhanded C contest: https://www.underhanded-c.org. It's a little-known "art"; little-known for probably self-explanatory reasons. There are much cleverer ways of achieving objectives like this. One obviously being you can move more out of the client and into the server, but the other being you can write plausibly deniable client code in a much more benign-seeming way than this. Some of what they added can only be done on the client, but I think more could've been moved, and the client-required parts could've done more subtly and credibly.)

    It's possible they knew the JS bundle gets so heavily scrutinized that it'd eventually get spotted and reported on regardless so they didn't bother doing something more subtle and duplicitous. But still a bit surprising.

    • hn_throwaway_99 0 minutes ago
      At first I was agreeing with you, that this seemed like a sloppy way to implement this that was sure to be pretty quickly detected, but there is another possibility.

      Anthropic could have implemented this not as a durable detection system against proxying resellers, but instead as a point-in-time sampling system to detect where (and with what context) proxying reselling is currently happening. Sure, it would be detected eventually, but in the meantime Anthropic could gain useful snapshot data.

    • m-hodges 17 minutes ago
      They also could have been much more interesting in the approach. LLMs can use their token distributions to generate stegotext that read like plausible prose but decode to payloads.¹

      ¹ https://github.com/hodgesmr/calgacus-mlx

      • ajyoon 5 minutes ago
        Sure, but the point here is to add a fingerprint from the client.
    • radicalbyte 23 minutes ago
      Claude Code are slopmaxxxing and you're considering their "judgement"? :-)
    • skywhopper 19 minutes ago
      Have you looked into anything about Claude Code, how it’s configured, how it interacts with your system, etc? Because “sloppy” is a defining characteristic.
    • slopinthebag 5 minutes ago
      It’s not surprising at all, they’re vibecoding Claude code so of course they are not going to get anything other than slop out of it. A novel or clever solution is just out of the question for them.
    • skeptic_ai 16 minutes ago
      It’s even more funny how this blew in their faces. They even advertised pretty much all providers on hackernews home page. Here is in case you missed in the article

      ‘’’ cn baidu.com alibaba-inc.com alipay.com antgroup-inc.cn bytedance.net kuaishou.com xiaohongshu.com jd.com bilibili.co iflytek.com stepfun-inc.com moonshot.ai anyrouter.top claude-code-hub.app claude-opus.top openclaude.me proxyai.com yunwu.ai zenmux.ai

      ‘’’

      You can view the full list here: https://cdn.thereallo.dev/blog/assets/cc-domains.js

      const knownDomains = [ "cn", "sankuai.com", "netease.com", "163.com", "baidu-int.com", "baidu.com", "alibaba-inc.com", "alipay.com", "antgroup-inc.cn", "kuaishou.com", "bytedance.net", "xiaohongshu.com", "ctripcorp.com", "jd.com", "jdcloud.com", "bilibili.co", "iflytek.com", "stepfun-inc.com", "aliyuncs.com", "cn-shanghai.fcapp.run", "cn-beijing.fcapp.run", "xaminim.com", "moonshot.ai", "anyrouter.top", "packyapi.com", "aicodemirror.com", "aigocode.com", "hongshan.com", "iwhalecloud.com", "dhcoder.net", "lemongpt.top", "zhihuiapi.top", "intsig.net", "high-five-ai.xyz", "cloudsway.net", "4sapi.com", "529961.com", "88996.cloud", "88code.ai", "88code.org", "91code.pro", "992236.xyz", "ai.codeqaq.com", "ai.hybgzs.com", "ai.kjvhh.com", "aicanapi.com", "aicoding.sh", "aifast.site", "aihubmix.com", "anmory.com", "api.5202030.xyz", "api.ablai.top", "api.bianxie.ai", "api.bltcy.ai", "api.cpass.cc", "api.dev88.tech", "api.dreamger.com", "api.expansion.chat", "api.gueai.com", "api.holdai.top", "api.ikuncode.cc", "api.lconai.com", "api.linkapi.org", "api.mkeai.com", "api.nekoapi.com", "api.oaipro.com", "api.ruyun.fun", "api.ssopen.top", "api.tu-zi.com", "api.uglycat.cc", "api.v3.cm", "api.whatai.cc", "api.wpgzs.top", "api.xty.app", "api.yuegle.com", "api.zzyu.me", "apimart.ai", "apipro.maynor1024.live", "apiyi.com", "applyj.hiapi.top", "augmunt.com", "b4u.qzz.io", "clauddy.com", "claude-code-hub.app", "claude-opus.top", "claudeide.net", "co.yes.vg", "code.wenwen-ai.com", "code.x-aio.com", "codeilab.com", "cubence.com", "deeprouter.top", "dimaray.com", "dmxapi.com", "docs.aigc2d.com", "duckcoding.com", "fk.hshwk.org", "flapcode.com", "foxcode.hshwk.org", "foxcode.rjj.cc", "fuli.hxi.me", "getgoapi.com", "gpt.zhizengzeng.com", "gptgod.cloud", "gptkey.eu.org", "gptpay.store", "hdgsb.com", "henapi.top", "instcopilot-api.com", "jeniya.top", "jiekou.ai", "kg-api.cloud", "n1n.ai", "new-api.u4vr.com", "new.xychatai.com", "one-api.bltcy.top", "one.ocoolai.com", "oneapi.paintbot.top", "open.xiaojingai.com", "openclaude.me", "opus.gptuu.com", "poloai.top", "poloapi.top", "privnode.com", "proxyai.com", "qinzhiai.com", "right.codes", "runanytime.hxi.me", "sssaicode.com", "store.zzyus.top", "tiantianai.pro", "uiuiapi.com", "uniapi.ai", "vip.undyingapi.com", "wolfai.top", "wzw.de5.net", "wzw.pp.ua", "xairouter.com", "xaixapi.com", "xiaohuapi.site", "xiaohumini.site", "xy.poloapi.com", "yansd666.com", "yansd666.top", "yunwu.ai", "yunwu.zeabur.app", "zenmux.ai", ];

      const labKeywords = [ "deepseek", "moonshot", "minimax", "xaminim", "zhipu", "bigmodel", "baichuan", "stepfun", "01ai", "dashscope", "volces", ]

      • writeslowly 5 minutes ago
        The site collection seems pretty random. There's a mix of actual AI labs, extremely questionable resellers (like whatever "claude-opus.top" is), and then random consumer sites like baidu and xiaohongshu.
  • chvid 1 minute ago
    (This sounds like a clumsy way of catching the Chinese that easily can be side-stepped.)

    Claude Code has more or less full access to the client computer. The server (that hosts the actual AI) can just go: execute this payload and tell me the result - otherwise I won't answer any further questions or re-route you to a stupider model.

    The payload could check for Chinese time-zones, scan for copies of the little red book on the local hard-drive, or ping truth.social to see it was behind the great firewall.

  • ryanisnan 1 minute ago
    This is weird but, help me understand how this meaningfully impacts our exposure.

    I'm authenticated to Claude, so they already have the whole attribution thing solved.

  • VortexLain 46 minutes ago
    Codex CLI is FOSS, unlike Claude Code, so Codex is less likely to do things like that, and it's one more reason to avoid Claude Code and Claude in general. Hopefully, many eyes will be looking into Codex for malicious things like that.
    • algoth1 9 minutes ago
      But wasnt claude code leaked? Why wasnt this found earlier?
    • dannyw 41 minutes ago
      It's released and signed by GitHub I believe (although not deterministic builds), but there's at least a little bit of provenance that you're getting the real repository.
  • sebastiennight 51 minutes ago
    Can somebody clarify for me - if ANTHROPIC_BASE_URL is set to a different provider... then isn't this "marked" system prompt being sent to that provider's API rather than Anthropic's?

    I understand how this can be useful to Anthropic if the 3rd-party is acting as a proxy (because they end up hitting the Claude API with the marked prompt), but it looks like requests where "hostname contains deepseek" would never be sending data to Anthropic. What am I missing?

    • pmxi 35 minutes ago
      This catches Claude resellers. Meaning companies who proxy Claude traffic for users in, say, China.

      https://www.chinatalk.media/p/how-to-buy-cheap-claude-tokens...

      • skeptic_ai 14 minutes ago
        Won’t catch many after has been on hn home page. And now the providers will be even more careful to upgrade the cc code. Might even provide their own agent to prevent this mockery. And isn’t what anthropic did unauthorized use of another pc which is kind of illegal?
        • sandeepkd 4 minutes ago
          Thats the thing, hoping to control things on client side like this is a lost battle if you are dealing with technical clients. The best they can do is probably based on IP, but again the motivated clients would just create bastion servers in allowed IP ranges. I am surprised why are they even throwing resources in this kind of effort.
    • andrewmunsell 48 minutes ago
      My guess is for distillation, they need to forward the prompt to Anthropic to get the real Anthropic model's response so they can train their own models on it
    • dannyw 45 minutes ago
      The theory is probably Deepseek might be collecting those streams, and sending a portion of it to Anthropic to see what the Anthropic/Opus response would be.
    • andai 12 minutes ago
      Did I understand correctly, that custom base URL triggers this behavior? So if I'm running Claude through a LLM proxy, I'm also affected?
  • matheusmoreira 24 minutes ago
    I reported a similar system prompt injection mechanism here:

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48259288

    https://github.com/anthropics/claude-code/issues/62061

    Looks like they just keep finding new "creative" uses for such things, as expected. I'll keep patching them out.

  • MattDamonSpace 1 hour ago
    “So the feature mostly punishes the exact people who are easier to fingerprint: normal developers doing weird but legitimate things”

    What’s the punishment here exactly?

    • pedropaulovc 1 hour ago
      Higher odds of being banned for legitimate usage.
    • bakugo 1 hour ago
      Output poisoning and/or eventual account bans, if I had to guess.
    • realusername 1 hour ago
      They probably run a heavily dumbed down version of the model, same as what they got caught doing with Fable.

      And that's also why, as a legitimate customer, want none of it, you never know if you accidentally entered a zone they don't like.

      • mgraczyk 12 minutes ago
        "got caught"

        to clarify, this behavior was announced with the model release

    • femboyvtuber 1 hour ago
      [dead]
  • LPisGood 1 hour ago
    This is very interesting. Combating resellers and distillation seems like a very difficult problem indeed. Interesting to me is that these techniques mentioned in the article are just like anti-observation techniques used by some of the more sophisticated malware out there, however defeating them is pretty trivial.
    • _alternator_ 1 hour ago
      Yes, defeating this is relatively easy, particularly for sophisticated actors. But it's hard to always defeat all of the tricks. Sort of like how it's expensive and hard and uncertain to defeat all of the tricks when forging money.

      Here's an example. Say you have your team use patched binaries. Then CC updates and requires a new patched binary with new tricks. You now have to have a team ready to analyze the binary and begin to address the tricks; meanwhile, unpatched code is now a fingerprint. If some researcher decides to update Claude on their own to access new features, they get fingerprinted.

      Defeating a single fingerprinting technique once is easy. Defeating all of the techniques all the time is hard.

      • SubiculumCode 39 minutes ago
        Not to mention, it isn't that hard for vendor's to require updated code to run the product. Vendors do this all the time.
      • charcircuit 41 minutes ago
        Is it hard? Just ask AI if the update added any new fingerprinting vectors?
        • _alternator_ 36 minutes ago
          I'd love for you to try this and report back. My guess is that no models today will successfully run a binary analysis for fingerprinting without a lot of handholding. If you try to use Opus it will almost certainly decline (and fingerprint/ban you).
          • charcircuit 26 minutes ago
            Not with Claude Code, but I trivially had Opus scan other closed source software for fingerprinting, including native libraries that it called into.
            • _alternator_ 11 minutes ago
              Can you share more details? I ask because my experience suggests that models still require a decent amount of expertise to use for binary analysis (largely inferring because of use on other tasks of this level). I would expect models to always find "something" when you ask for stenographic techniques in the code, but with an extremely high false positive rate.
    • mysterydip 1 hour ago
      seems ironically like a similar problem of content owners trying to filter bot scrapers from legit users
  • dehrmann 11 minutes ago
    Anthropic must think that their moat isn't very large if they're this worried about distillation.
  • wolttam 59 minutes ago
    I used Claude Code for a month because my boss gifted me a sub and wanted me to try it.

    I used that month to complete a work project and then beef up my personal harness so I'd never have to deal with Anthropic (and these sorts of shenanigans) again.

    • thih9 40 minutes ago
      How do people build something like a personal harness? Are there tools for that or is it done from scratch?
      • yomismoaqui 5 minutes ago
        Building something like this is the todo list of agents.

        I found this one easy to understand:

        https://ampcode.com/notes/how-to-build-an-agent

      • abtinf 7 minutes ago
        Here is a video I made explaining it from absolute basics:

        https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_AgKuFGvJfI

        And the repo:

        https://github.com/abtinf/homunctor

      • andai 24 minutes ago
        I like this tutorial for an agent in 50 lines:

        http://minimal-agent.com/

        And if you add one additional while loop, for user input, you can actually use it! :)

        https://gist.github.com/a-n-d-a-i/5461a662ef8a7ee0a5eb7778c8...

      • nowittyusername 33 minutes ago
        Build it from scratch. Understanding fundamentals of how agentic coding harnesses is a must though if you gonna go that route. I think everyone should take time and learn these things, maybe reverse engineer Codex Cli or something like that as a starter. That info is very valuable in this day and age.
        • andai 10 minutes ago
          Can you say more about Codex? I'm using GPT-5.5 in my own harness and it's not liking it very well, so I'm thinking I ought to make it more Codexy so it's more ergonomic for it. (edit format, tool calls etc.) But haven't gotten around to it yet.
      • wolttam 35 minutes ago
        I started mine from scratch in 2023 because I wanted to use LLMs from a terminal and there was nothing else compelling at the time (nowadays there is pi and opencode)

        Harnesses are/can be incredibly simple things, not much more than a HTTP client that renders things in a way that suites your taste.

      • kolinko 36 minutes ago
        It’s not that difficult, it’s just a system prompt and a set of basic file edit/bash/etc tools.

        Me, personally, I didn’t build it from scratch but I ported original CC from published sources into Python and extended it to match my own requirements.

        • andai 9 minutes ago
          Are you using it with Claude? They only allow their own harness with the subs right? (And per-token billing is like 10x more expensive?)
      • hakunin 34 minutes ago
        Not the comment author, but I use pi and customize it with my own extensions. Pi automatically tells models how to customize itself, so it's a pretty easy process.
      • echelon 32 minutes ago
        Why use a personal harness?

        You have to pay API pricing, which is far more costly.

        I'd either switch to GLM wholesale or just continue to use Opus within Claude Code as the blessed, subsidized path.

        • andai 8 minutes ago
          I use GLM in my custom harness. It completes the same tasks at the same level of quality, except 8x faster and 8x cheaper. (Same goes for GPT!)

          I'm not sure how that's possible. I expected to get increased correctness for that order of magnitude (something something test-time compute!) but I am not getting it.

        • JTbane 6 minutes ago
          I would guess it is to avoid model lock-in.
    • krupan 31 minutes ago
      Given the Anthropic shenanigans, do you trust the personal harness code it wrote for you?
      • wolttam 24 minutes ago
        It did not write it for me, I used it to add a feature I wanted. It's a pretty small and understandable codebase, in fact :)
      • MichaelZuo 27 minutes ago
        Does anyone know what’s gone wrong with Anthropic?

        They used to be a decently credible company with not-too-shady behaviour...

        I hope they can actually regain some credibility…

        • hombre_fatal 6 minutes ago
          I don't think many people care that they are trying to detect resellers and distillation.

          It also doesn't seem very consistent to fixate on that while sending Anthropic everything about you via your day to day prompts, every line of the projects and environments you're working on at work, etc.

          Their credibility comes from having one of the best models.

        • slowmovintarget 3 minutes ago
          Their philosophy is what's gone wrong.

          It has some good effects on the their models, like Claude seeking cooperation first. But the people behind the company have a typical "unconstrained" (in the Sowell vision sense) perspective that assumes that they know better, so they are righteous for attempting to control things (users, paying customers, their model outputs, their tool chain, the supposed deity they assume they will produce... etc.)

        • AlexandrB 25 minutes ago
          They've only been around 5 years and have grown tremendously during that time. There's no stable reputation you can rely on yet.
        • imhoguy 14 minutes ago
          Enshitification. Too big to.. upset the govt.
        • skeptic_ai 24 minutes ago
          They just show their true face. You’ve been lied all this time. They were never “good”.
          • MichaelZuo 18 minutes ago
            I used to interact with the LW crowd… and they were mostly not outright swindlers or scoundrels. (from what I could sense)

            I think it’s fair to say most had decent respectability.

            Anthropic hired heavily from that pool so it’s astonishing how it turned out.

    • tonmoy 55 minutes ago
      What models are you using? Aren’t you still dealing with some provider even if you are not using their binary
    • SubiculumCode 41 minutes ago
      [flagged]
      • tiahura 40 minutes ago
        Phased rollouts are a triggering microagression for some.
    • jvanderbot 52 minutes ago
      Agree - Claude code is helping me set up a bunch of local llm rigging. For some home stuff, I can now delegate locally.

      The agentic harness on the open source side does need some work, however.

  • an0malous 3 minutes ago
    Is this why Claude never knows what date and time it is right now?
  • port3000 20 minutes ago
    That's a lot of effort when they could just play a short video saying 'You wouldn't steal a car' instead
  • jacobgold 13 minutes ago
    > "That also means the client itself deserves scrutiny. If a coding agent can read your repo and run commands, the binary that ships it should be boring (ƒor example, pi harness)"

    You're actually trust your security to your harness AND model AND inference API provider in this scenario: https://jacob.gold/posts/why-i-wont-run-untrusted-models/

  • throwawayffffas 1 hour ago
    Claude code does feel very malwarey to be honest. They have been like that from the start.
  • sigmoid10 1 hour ago
    If they only collect the data for analysis I guess this is fine (they already get way more sensitive data from users anyways, so if privacy is your concern you've made the mistake many steps ago). The much more interesting question is if they directly act on this data in their API. For example by rate-limiting, compute-limiting or rerouting to weaker models. That might even be legally questionable. I would really like to see this as a follow-up analysis, but I guess it is way more difficult and will also cost quite a bit in tokens.
    • SubiculumCode 38 minutes ago
      Would it be legally questionable, or actually complying with U.S. export law?
    • krupan 15 minutes ago
      "If they only collect the data for analysis I guess this is fine"

      I think you missed the memo on how foolish this attitude is. It came out around the time Edward Snowden made his discoveries at the NSA public. I suggest you look into it

      • sigmoid10 6 minutes ago
        As I said above, if you are worried about privacy while hooking up Claude Code, you need to reevaluate your understanding of this technology.
    • bakugo 49 minutes ago
      I've heard that it was possible to trigger really obvious output poisoning on Fable with something as basic as asking the model to think outside of its built-in hidden thinking delimiters.

      This watermark may trigger a similar mechanism.

  • tgtweak 39 minutes ago
    None of this is surprising - they're trying to mask and relay when they detect known patterns of what looks like distillation attacks and client app copying/modification. The list obfuscation here is likely to prevent or make it difficult for those same adversaries to work around this or delete/null it out when making a bootleg copy.

    Cool reverse engineering/analysis report but if this is the extent of nefarious activity that came of it (trying to catch/mitigate chinese lab model distillations), that's kind of encouraging.

  • fny 54 minutes ago
    This was already discovered during the source map leak.

    > This is not a malicious feature, but it is a weird choice for a developer tool that asks for trust.

    They already tell you they scan for malicious prompts, and they have no ZDR guarantees for consumers. Why do signatures like this matter at all?

    • llelouch 25 minutes ago
      There has been an anti anthropic propaganda push by bad actors across social media sites especially Reddit and twitter. This started a few months ago when anthropic started beating openai.
  • 100ms 1 hour ago
    What's the point of even trying to obfuscate this with such a simple method? Could at least have hidden the targeted features by storing their hashes or embedding a bloom filter or similar
    • ajb 22 minutes ago
      In this case, this is probably not the only stereographic tattletale.

      Had a competitor pull something like this with a previous employer. They were supposed to be interoperating with a standard, but they had a secret steganographic handshake, which they used to pretend that competitors products were unreliable (they had a first mover position in a smaller national market with specific requirements, so this wasn't shooting themselves in the foot). Our guys figured out the handshake and just silently implemented it. In this case, the competitor wasn't big enough to waste engineering time on multiple such hacks, but Anthropic have time (or Claude does).

    • gonzalohm 1 hour ago
      The point is not raising red flags I guess
      • kej 57 minutes ago
        I love how well this comment works as a vexillology joke, even if it wasn't intended.
  • iqandjoke 42 minutes ago
    It is about China detection. They seems to put a tracker on the email as well.
  • 827a 16 minutes ago
    This seems really, really stupid. Similar to the weird Zig runtime signature thing from a few months ago ago, it was bound to be discovered, quickly, and all the resellers have to do is find a new domain name that (checks notes) doesn't have the word DEEPSEEK in it. Like, seriously? Your goal was to identify resellers by checking if the proxy has the corporate name of one of your competitors in it? Is this amateur hour?

    All Anthropic has done is reduce trust, once again, with legitimate customers, while doing nothing to stop illegitimate customers. They need to get adults into key leadership roles, quickly.

  • ahmedehab_01 56 minutes ago
    Frankly, I don't see this as the concerning behaviour the article describes. It is fine to try to protect against distillation through a technique like this. This will also allow them to, instead of blocking the distillation agents, respond with a poorer result/model, hindering the progress of distillation, momentarily at least.

    I would guess that's their first line of defense; they should have more techniques to identify distillation because that's a very simple way of detecting the host and can be easily spoofed.

    • applfanboysbgon 48 minutes ago
      > This will also allow them to, instead of blocking the distillation agents, respond with a poorer result/model,

      i.e. this will allow them to literally commit fraud against paying customers

      • SubiculumCode 34 minutes ago
        1st, this technique is not fraud, and fraud is a separate accusation. 2nd, paying customers can legally and legitimately be banned and monitored for breaking terms of service, which probably includes things like using the model against U.S. export restrictions.
        • skeptic_ai 21 minutes ago
          So if I change my timezone to Shanghai I deserve to get banned? Or get shitty model instead of what I’m paying for?
        • applfanboysbgon 22 minutes ago
          Banning is completely different than charging for a service you're silently not providing.
      • chadgpt3 44 minutes ago
        That's what capitalism is all about, baby! Especially if the customers don't notice.
  • MangoCoffee 22 minutes ago
    The AI race right now is in a sad state. Chinese's playbook is releases open weight models and trains them on their own chips.

    Anthropic pushes fear and control. But the only way to win is by innovating. China is flooding the market with cheap, good enough models, while the U.S. is building a Chinese firewall.

  • Klonoar 58 minutes ago
    If there weren't already enough tells that something is AI-generated, I guess you could add this to the list.
  • SaaShack26 13 minutes ago
    I use its too
  • a_c 42 minutes ago
    It piqued my interest. I think I’ve found a weekend project
  • felipelalli 18 minutes ago
    Ridiculous.
  • bitlad 12 minutes ago
    Silicon valley season 6 was on point.
  • mosfets 24 minutes ago
    I clicked the link to learn what steganography mean...
  • phendrenad2 22 minutes ago
  • ductsurprise 35 minutes ago
    Is it just a minified localization(l10n) function maybe?
  • hhh 1 hour ago
    Cool fingerprinting avenue.
  • ajross 39 minutes ago
    Headline is, frankly, awful. This isn't the AI secretly doing stuff and hiding it. This is the very human Anthropic engineers trying to detect Chinese scraping via some frankly hamfisted and unimaginative URL trickery.
    • krupan 20 minutes ago
      I didn't assume it was the AI, just that some part of the the overall Claude Code product was doing this. I didn't assume the feature was added to Claude Code without human oversight. If it was added by Claude-the-AI itself without the humans prompting it to I would still hold the humans at Anthropic responsible. Does that make you feel better?
  • love0972 1 hour ago
    Is that really how it is? How will this affect our future?
  • grayhatter 1 hour ago
    Here's the sha of the prompt I submitted... no I don't know why there are no saved prompts with that sha.

    What do you mean you don't know where the bug is coming from?

    No, I absolutely didn't make it up, how could you accuse me of that?

    Does anyone know when this regex isn't working? I double checked it 27 times, I even asked the LLM. They all say this regex should be finding these dates.

    Weird, suddenly all the conversations are breaking when I feed them into this other tool? Something about UTF-8 errors, but I'm sure I'm only using ASCII?

    I do try to take care to make sure the things I build can be used by other people even when they care about different things. I care about understandably, determinism (as it relates to computing), and repeatability (because I want to be able to trust the systems I use).

    If y'all would be willing to try to account for use cases of others, and try not to break them... that would be nice.

    Please note: that generally when you modify something that belongs to someone else without telling them... things should be expected to break.

  • maxothex 1 hour ago
    [flagged]
  • 123sereusername 1 hour ago
    [dead]
  • saddlerustle 1 hour ago
    [flagged]
    • dwa3592 1 hour ago
      this seems a bit extreme. pangram does not work. i have tricked it multiple times. i don't get how people are still trusting these systems.
      • dylan604 1 hour ago
        it's just a different car on the hype train
    • dewey 1 hour ago
      Source: Other AI
  • midtake 1 hour ago
    [flagged]
    • gonzalohm 1 hour ago
      Is it worse than the companies that built the agent and gave no credit for the data they used?
    • matheusmoreira 1 hour ago
      Why would you give free advertising to trillion dollar corporations?
    • axutio 1 hour ago
      Would you also say that "someone who wants to use an IDE / LSP features to code and not give credit to the IDE / LSP is the worst kind of person"? If not, what is the difference between the two for you?
      • dylan604 58 minutes ago
        one wrote code while the other is used by meatbags to write code. why is this example always marched out like it means something?
        • zahlman 42 minutes ago
          > one wrote code while the other is used by meatbags to write code.

          One is not a "meatbag" while the other is not a "meatbag". And no, outputting something on stdout that happens to function as code is not "writing" it in the sense that we actually care about here. That's conflating the metaphor we use in describing program behaviour with the actual "meatbag" activity.

          > why is this example always marched out like it means something?

          Because it obviously does.

        • LPisGood 54 minutes ago
          Almost all ways of creating programs are effectively just using tools to produce code. Compiling, transpiling, interpreting byte code, etc.
          • dylan604 46 minutes ago
            again, that's not what we are talking about here. we have humans writing code using an IDE. we have LLMs generating code that is placed in the IDE. why are people obtuse to this? why are bots obtuse to this?
        • khuey 45 minutes ago
          Claude didn't "write" anything until a meatbag told it to.
          • dylan604 42 minutes ago
            My employer didn't write anything until they told me to.
      • palmotea 53 minutes ago
        > Would you also say that "someone who wants to use an IDE / LSP features to code and not give credit to the IDE / LSP is the worst kind of person"?

        That's a false equivalency.

        > If not, what is the difference between the two for you?

        Let's start this out right: if they're equivalent, first you explain to us why you think so.

        • zahlman 46 minutes ago
          > That's a false equivalency.

          How is it false?

          > Let's start this out right: if they're equivalent, first you explain to us why you think so.

          I think it should be really obvious how they're equivalent: both are the result of a program running on a computer, and not the result of in-the-moment cognition by a moral agent or moral patient. Of course the LLM is just a tool. Models can literally be downloaded as ordinary files. There is not some threshold to cross where some configurations of bits on a disk deserve "credit" for work and others do not.

          • palmotea 36 minutes ago
            > I think it should be really obvious how they're equivalent: both are the result of a program running on a computer...

            In fact everything is equivalent: it's all just matter and energy!

            > Of course the LLM is just a tool. Models can literally be downloaded as ordinary files. There is not some threshold to cross where some configurations of bits on a disk deserve "credit" for work and others do not.

            Of course there is such a threshold. And it's definitely been crossed when the "tool" can operate autonomously or nearly so, when it can generate the "creation" with minimal operator input or understanding.

            Your classic IDE can't do anything without the detailed control of its operator. It's nothing like a coding agent.

          • slopinthebag 28 minutes ago
            So when an author writes a book using a typewriter, they didn’t actually write the book, the typewriter did? Neat logic!
        • axutio 30 minutes ago
          I just don't agree that it's a false equivalency. I see them both as "tools I use to get the job done". For me, the job is not "writing code" - it is "deliver feature", "fix bug", and the accountability, responsibility, and communication that comes with it.
          • palmotea 27 minutes ago
            > I just don't agree that it's a false equivalency. I see them both as "tools I use to get the job done". For me, the job is not "writing code" - it is "deliver feature", "fix bug", and the accountability, responsibility, and communication that comes with it.

            Hello, Tom Smykowski. You have people skills!

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNuu9CpdjIo

    • jazzyjackson 55 minutes ago
      Should I credit Microsoft with my perfect spelling as well ?
    • fg137 53 minutes ago
      And your comment is completely irrelevant to the article's content.
  • atonse 1 hour ago
    [flagged]
    • Maken 58 minutes ago
      If scrapping content is legal, model distillation should be legal too.
      • palmotea 49 minutes ago
        > If scrapping content is legal, model distillation should be legal too.

        No, because legality should be determined by what's in the best interests of Athropic and OpenAI's business models.

        Hopefully they're working on RLHF their models to insert clauses making that reality clear into any legislation their models generate or review. That way it's only a matter of time until the confusion is cleared up.

      • thewebguyd 30 minutes ago
        I suppose model distillation is technically legal, in terms of copyright, because LLM output is automatically public domain.

        It's only "illegal" from a standpoint of breach of contract given its against the terms of use/service, which is to say its not illegal at all, there's no criminality there.

    • android521 56 minutes ago
      There are so many China born Chinese employees at Anthropic and OpenAI and I think quite a lot of them have already been recruited as spy . So it is almost impossible to keep secrets from Chinese government.
    • matheusmoreira 1 hour ago
      > steal the models or illegally distill them

      The irony.

    • botfriendsarent 1 hour ago
      At what point though doesnt somebody stand back and say "wow, thats really dumb!" I think its probably more an indication of a dev having too much time on their hands rather than being in a hurry.
    • dofm 1 hour ago
      Not totally new territory; there was a highly compressed period of panic about encryption 35 [0] years ago:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy#Criminal_i...

      [0] f**k I'm old

    • bakugo 1 hour ago
      > steal the models or illegally distill them

      Oh no, they're trying to steal the models that were trained on stolen data? That's horrible, I feel so bad for Anthropic.

  • theplumber 1 hour ago
    The more I learn about Anthropic the more they disgust me. Finger crossed for all the companies from their “ban list”
    • conception 1 hour ago
      Which AI company have you learned more about where you liked them more as more details came out?
      • tancop 18 minutes ago
        nous research. started out making overhyped llama finetunes, now they got a great agent harness and a cutting edge distributed training network that actually works.
      • selfhoster11 29 minutes ago
        Moonshot.