Surely this will just be Chinese hardware with a "made in America" label slapped on it. I can't fathom why anyone would allow GM of all companies to get any contracts
This is the same story everywhere. Nobody has the know-how or the deep ecosystems needed to do these things.
India has a "made in India" mandate which is hilarious. >80% of solar panel (polysilicon, ingots, and silicon wafers) is from China while having the India label. Situation is worse with batteries and EVs. Tata, which has been making vehicles for quite some time doesn't have any clue how to make EVs and is building an entire plant with a Chinese company (Chery).
Of course, everything will be labeled "made in ....".
In any country, the super rich have a simple algorithm:
1) Get it manufactured in China, slap your label and sell. Free trade is good for you, thousands of economists reports, blah, blah.
2) When its impossible to compete: China is security threat, we can't allow them. But we'll import most of it (80 - 90% of components) and still put our label.
Its easy to manipulate Govts, lobby or buy (Musk).
My company operates two Jupiter Power owned LFP batteries in the MISO market. Each of them draws .5 - 2MW constantly for the HVAC system. If the cost for sodium batteries is similar to LFP, that alone would be a reason to switch.
Cost of replacement? Cost of insurance against a fire? Cold weather performance may also be quite important, and not only somewhere in Alaska, but even in places like Dallas, that are hot in summer but cold during winter nights.
Not an expert, but from what I read the expectation is for sodium ion batteries to get substantially cheaper than lithium, mainly due to material cost.
Lithium makes up 0.002% of the Earth's crust, meanwhile sodium is 2.36%, and there's quite a lot of it in the ocean.
The main downside is power density, which for grid storage is not as big a deal as it is for vehicles. But it will still be some years of research on sodium batteries for the cost advantage and manufacturing scale to materialize.
AT grid scale, sodium quickly closes the gap on lithium. The safety overhead, active cooling, and physical spacing needed to control lithium’s thermal runaway risk eat away most of its energy density advantage. Plus, CATL is hitting cost parity between full sodium BESS and LFP BESS systems.
The other big reason is the longevity. LFP life span gives you about 2000-5000 cycles depending on where your application can't tolerate the capacity reduction.
Sodium Ion can go to 10,000 cycles (27 years) with a 70% capacity reduction at that life.
This makes financing a large grid scale storage plant look way better to the bean counters because the investment continues to work and make money, after the 5 year amortization, typical of a corporate investment. This will be the kicker IMHO.
For something like a battery backup that last decades that doesn't need maintenance, maybe you could bury it out of the way (like under a deck or lawn?), maybe even under the frost line.
might need to be in some special containment at that size, depending on the technology -- some sodium ion batteries implementations are very toxic / highly reactive / flammable.
Lithium batteries in cars are usually at least that good already. Most of the efficiency lost is in converting back and forth between AC/DC between the grid and the motors, and the rest in the auxillary features such as heating and cooling the cabin.
I want to replace my Lithium home battery, and what I really want to do it to move to one of the new sodium ion batteries..e.g like the one CATL is supposed to have at some point?
Anyone have a good idea when these will be available for consumers?
Bluetti has a small battery pack for now. I think the options for consumers will balloon once CATL mass produce sodium ion cells. Solix/anker, jackery, ecoflow, etc all use CATL cells already.
Na-Ion batteries are not practical for home storage right now. They have a much higher voltage range compared to LFP batteries, so regular inverters and chargers will not work reliably. Nothing insurmountable, but the supply chain is just not here.
Na-Ion cells are great for grid-scale storage because they potentially can go down to something like $20 per kWh. But bulk LFP cells are already at ~$60 per kWh, so their cost is not really a deciding factor anymore.
Hopefully never. If they ever do, it means the local government truly doesn't care about you anymore.
Na is basically Li times 30. This is good in that they make really effective batteries. This is bad in that when the battery malfunctions, the energy is released at 30x the rate. So remember when that Telsa caught fire and the driver walked away very scared but ok. If those were Na-ion, they wouldn't be ok...or alive...or recognizable as human. Basically, these are far too dangerous for consumer use. And any grid scale battery will need about a mile of gravel around them to prevent any fires or deaths from explosions.
Sodium ion batteries are less energy dense than lithium ion and are not prone to dendrite formation. They are also more thermally stable and less likely to do thermal run away reactions.
Also, since they are less energy dense they don’t store the same potential energy.
You are probably thinking of metallic sodium batteries which are completely different.
You must work for a LiPo company. This is the opposite of truth. Sodium doesn't behave like lithium at all. The chemistry is very different. Imagine if table salt had an exo reaction in water
What? All the data suggests that sodium ion batteries are safer than lithium ion batteries: it is harder to set them into thermal runaway and they are less violent when they do so.
Keep in mind, we could have had local Na-Ion battery production in the US. The company producing them needed about $5m of bridge loans, with products already sitting in warehouses awaiting the UL certification.
Given that $5 million is not that much in the heavy industry game, I'd like to know why they couldn't get the bridge loans.
Like, that's not an unreasonable size of loan for a regional expansion for medium-sized businesses; there should be some sort of lender interested in doing that for them.
That's why, if you look at Fervo energy's makeup, and ask why do your have so many finance people, relative to the number of engineers; that's why. As a software developer, I have no idea how to get a $5 million bridge loan other than whatever ChatGPT could tell me. Meanwhile, a team of finance guys with domain expertise could have gotten them that $5 million.
Yeah, I had questions when Kurt Kelty was saying that Peak's battery was "kicking butt" after the article said Peak is still building their battery factory and currently buys its cells from China.
Is GM testing Peak's cells or some Chinese company's cells?
Its a failure in the U.S. because the bet is on solid state batteries. Personally I won't take the EV plunge until they have those. The only exception for me to not wait would be the 10k BYD car. At that price point and it lasted 3 years i'd be happy.
The article is about grid storage, but grids can also use solid state and battery tech is shared between different usecases. My point was where the bet is.
QuantumScape is a good example as it entered into agreements with opertors for their battery tech.
India has a "made in India" mandate which is hilarious. >80% of solar panel (polysilicon, ingots, and silicon wafers) is from China while having the India label. Situation is worse with batteries and EVs. Tata, which has been making vehicles for quite some time doesn't have any clue how to make EVs and is building an entire plant with a Chinese company (Chery).
Of course, everything will be labeled "made in ....".
In any country, the super rich have a simple algorithm:
1) Get it manufactured in China, slap your label and sell. Free trade is good for you, thousands of economists reports, blah, blah.
2) When its impossible to compete: China is security threat, we can't allow them. But we'll import most of it (80 - 90% of components) and still put our label.
Its easy to manipulate Govts, lobby or buy (Musk).
Why would that be a reason to switch, given the LFP batteries typically have better operational parameters in everything except cold-weather charging?
Lithium makes up 0.002% of the Earth's crust, meanwhile sodium is 2.36%, and there's quite a lot of it in the ocean.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth...
The main downside is power density, which for grid storage is not as big a deal as it is for vehicles. But it will still be some years of research on sodium batteries for the cost advantage and manufacturing scale to materialize.
This makes financing a large grid scale storage plant look way better to the bean counters because the investment continues to work and make money, after the 5 year amortization, typical of a corporate investment. This will be the kicker IMHO.
If this battery plus some solar panels could get us free power for the next 20+ years, that's easily worth $15-$20k or so.
Doesn't matter for cars, but I think that's pretty good/important for grid storage.
Anyone have a good idea when these will be available for consumers?
Na-Ion cells are great for grid-scale storage because they potentially can go down to something like $20 per kWh. But bulk LFP cells are already at ~$60 per kWh, so their cost is not really a deciding factor anymore.
Na is basically Li times 30. This is good in that they make really effective batteries. This is bad in that when the battery malfunctions, the energy is released at 30x the rate. So remember when that Telsa caught fire and the driver walked away very scared but ok. If those were Na-ion, they wouldn't be ok...or alive...or recognizable as human. Basically, these are far too dangerous for consumer use. And any grid scale battery will need about a mile of gravel around them to prevent any fires or deaths from explosions.
Sodium ion batteries are less energy dense than lithium ion and are not prone to dendrite formation. They are also more thermally stable and less likely to do thermal run away reactions.
Also, since they are less energy dense they don’t store the same potential energy.
You are probably thinking of metallic sodium batteries which are completely different.
This company got sold for scrap.
Like, that's not an unreasonable size of loan for a regional expansion for medium-sized businesses; there should be some sort of lender interested in doing that for them.
So really just assembly and sales then. I suppose it's a good start and maybe if business takes off they can figure out their own cells.
Is GM testing Peak's cells or some Chinese company's cells?
In a car it’s worth paying more for higher volumetric and gravitational density. For aircraft even more so.
For grid storage, physical space is usually not the largest issue. Cost of deployment, stability, and cycle life are bigger factors.
QuantumScape is a good example as it entered into agreements with opertors for their battery tech.
Good article on solid state for the grid: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2025/ph240/mann2/