Tangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.
Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock
Eliminate all screens after sundown. It's literally the nr 1 reason why people struggle. I used to as well (I could easily work in front of a monitor until 4am without getting tired with no coffee or anything). After that, avoid any bright white lights in the evening (usually kitchen/bathroom). It's not always possible, depending on your work and place of living and especially while travelling. I ended up getting extreme blue light filtering glasses too (make sure they cover your eyes fully so light doesn't leak in from the side). Looks ridiculous, but that helped a lot. Finally, add a wind down routine that does not involve any kind of mental or physical excitement. For me it was as simple as walking around the block for 10-15min. But it can be anything that doesn't stimulate you in any way. You can try to sit in the darkness and meditate.
You will not just sleep better, you will have no issues sleeping at night and getting up in the morning. Downside is that you will definitely be awake once the sun rises (sucks in summer if you live far from the equator) and if you shut the blinds and have no automatic opener you are very likely to oversleep. Tuning your body to the solar day has pros and cons.
It was not an option. Kids need a regular schedule with school and things. It was rough though. I did not ever drink coffee before that time, but starting then I needed several cups just to avoid accidents in the morning.
Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes.
Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against morning cognition.
I apologize for not reading the full study before submitting it on Hacker News and for the misleading headline on the frontpage given the context of the dosages used, I really should have noticed that the link only contained an abstract.
Long ago when I paid attention to this, the wisdom was to watch out because most melatonin pills are targeted to geriatric patients. Old folks need a significant boost to their melatonin to deal with eroding sleep quality, not a little hit of it. So as a 30 year old or younger you want a fraction of what grandad is taking.
You wouldn’t, if you remembered that medically speaking, younger people “needing” melatonin pills has been pretty fringe until very recently, and the number of young people who need it is still comparatively small.
You can find smaller pills. But you might have to try several chains or order online to get them.
There is a rumour that the high doses are because the correct dose was under patent.
I can only find that in a comment here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th... but I could have sworn it was in the main article when I first read it. (If so that makes it less likely, because the author revises his articles for correctness)
That (albeit long) article is worth reading. For example, it explains that melatonin is a phase signal, so being saturated with too much melatonin actually makes the signal less clear (as well as potentially causing other issues).
I end up biting a lot of pills to get around that dose. I definitely always felt groggy until I dialed down the dose to just right, and it works perfectly: I fall asleep far quicker and more assuredly, and I don't feel to groggy. I can't believe they sell pills as large as they do, what other medication varies in dosage as much?
I suspect the dosage and absorption isn't fully understood yet or very individual. For me some 2mg pills work fine and other 3mg pills don't; currently I use 4mg time-release and it's mostly fine. 1 mg is definitely not enough for me.
I would be groggy a few hours after taking the pill but not in the morning.
Since they're not regulated as medication, melatonin pills have no guarantees about actual melatonin content. In studies, the vast majority of supplement labels are inaccurate.
Next, the same experiment could be done with individuals who would be more likely to use melatonin supplements, or even just a broader group than "healthy young adults". I feel that the starting point of the experiment is a bit flawed since there's a high chance these healthy young adults don't have the problem the supplements are designed for. I'm not surprised about "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures" for these people.
Personal experience: I have mild insomnia* and I sometimes take melatonin. It generally does help, but I can be groggy in the morning, if I took it too late in the evening. Happens sometimes. But for me, it's so much better to be sometimes a bit groggy for a short while, compared to being completely exhausted from sleep deprivation all day.
*I was a startup founder for 10 years and practically did not sleep during that time. Even years after that life, it feels like my body is not responding to melatonin that much. Or my body is not secreting enough itself. Who knows.
> I feel that the starting point of the experiment is a bit flawed
This is from the first paragraph in the abstract:
> Exogenous melatonin has been shown to improve sleep in individuals with sleep disorders, such as insomnia and delayed sleep phase disorder. However, research on the effect of exogenous melatonin on sleep in healthy young adults is limited.
Exactly. The relevant comparison for someone with insomnia isn't melatonin vs perfect natural sleep, it's melatonin plus some morning grogginess vs not getting enough sleep at all
Generally yes, and I definitely am an advocate of getting enough sleep and good quality sleep.
Regarding "sleep more to be more efficient"; Hard to say without visiting a parallel universe. But in this specific case it was really about having enough hours in a day. Most of the work did not require me at my sharpest. If I was in the same situation today, Claude would be doing these menial things for me and I'd sleep more. But we didn't have Claude then.
It was a tech startup that I wanted to build without any outside money. With investments of course I'd just hire more people. I had luck and perseverance, and everything turned out great. I had 100% ownership and sold it for private equity. Now I only work because I like solving tricky problems, and not working gets incredibly boring after a while.
As with so many experiments, the study itself is clear and testing something valid, but when it gets shared somewhere like reddit/HN/Facebook etc. everyone takes the broadest possible, unintended reading.
- study: we tested specifically healthy young adults and found melatonin may have a negative effect on this cohort. We make zero claims about any other cohort.
- every lay person reading the study, of any age: scientists just proved melatonin makes me dumb in the morning! Oh no!
My understanding is that you ought to take melatonin in small doses (0.3 or so) an hour or two before sleep in order to get tired, whereupon you sleep (normally, ish, unless you take too much and then you get crazy dreams or sleep paralysis). If I take it and go right to bed I always wake up still in the 'window' of its effect.
I was taking small doses of melatonin before go to sleep for a year or two. To help me begin to sleep. I have a tinnitus. Usually I have a deep sleep. I can get sleep, I can sleep all night without problems. it's only the first hour that can be problematic for me.
I stoped like half year, and I don't having problems to sleep.
Hard to discuss this with only a short abstract. They don't even give a dose or formulation of the melatonin, and details like "We found no significant differences between the melatonin and sleep groups on any of our sleep measures." raise more questions than they answer.
The study is on "healthy young adults". How much improvement would you expect on someone who is already "healthy"? It's not like they are going to ascend and become superhuman.
Anecdote - I've used it dozens of times and I'm always foggy in the AM, so I avoid it if I have to be sharp the next morning. Perhaps it's a coincidence and this study is flawed, but I can believe it pretty easily.
What dose are you using? Most OTC melatonin supplements are sold in a 3 or 5mg dose, while the correct one is ~0.3mg or even lower for some people. High dose may be related to the fogginess.
same here.
I use 5HTP instead, apparently the same chemical pathway just goes in at a different point. no fog in the morning at all. Nice and sharp, feel good.
Not OP but I seem to get a benefit from GABA. Valerian root is effective at inducing sleep but leaves me groggy and I've had paradoxical anxiety reactions to it and there's some question around its longer term use. L-theanine is often mentioned but I'm not sure I benefit. Magnesium glycinate is another that comes up often.
Insomniac for 20 years. What was a complete solution for me was: magnesium, b6 p5p (p5p form very important) and the ultimate punch glycine.
Glycine takes some getting used to, as you will have crazy intense dreams at first. But it is a very safe supplement to take even in large doses.
I always had huge insomnia issues after a physically intensive days after workouts. The stack I settled on solved it. A heavy day just needs a bit more magnesium and quite a bit more glycine.
Anecdotally, I've taken 3mg a couple of times to adjust my sleep schedule and have found that I do feel a bit drowsy/slow the next morning. Fine for me since it's just ad hoc usage, but I wouldn't take it nightly.
This may just be too much. I settled up on 0.2mg dosage - you can find 0.1mg tablets, easy to try different dosages with them. Also seems to work better if you take it 2-3 hours before sleep.
My understanding is that melatonin can overload certain receptors and cause an issue with fogginess since it works directly on the brain. 5HTP is more broad and is “gated“ on the same metabolic pathway, so cannot overload the system the way melatonin does.
My experience with Melatonin was very hit-or-miss. Sometimes it landed like a hammer and I was very groggy the next day. Sometimes it seemed not to work at all. This was with all sorts of doses.
I've found Tart Cherry - as an OTC supplement to work much better. More pleasant drift off to sleep, less waking up at night, and no morning grogginess.
The body gets used to melatonin. It is actually a crap sleep supplement. It works worse every time you take it. What you should be doing is give the body the ingredients it needs to make its own melatonin like it is suppose to work.
> The results suggest that negative performance effects of exogenous melatonin may outweigh any benefits for healthy young adults
Not surprising at all. The vast majority of people taking supplements are avoiding either the doctor, eating a better diet, or regular exercise.
What are the odds that someone comfortable taking overpriced sketchy pills is also probably comfortable taking other substances? I only have to look at any random suburban strip mall in the USA to get my answer. I always chuckle at the IV drip place next door to the bar.
As a long term insomniac the head line result is not surprising. My overall experience with "sleep aides" is they all lead to impairments in morning cognition. The worst of which don't last just the morning... (seroquel, I'm pointing at you...) Melatonin is surprisingly powerful for a hormone / supplement. For me, it hits like a truck, and I find it strong enough that I had to stop taking it.
I'd be careful with the methodology here. There's been research that shows that most melatonin supplements are megadosed, with something like the "physiological dosage range" being 1 - 2 micrograms (ug.) So I'd hope the researchers got a trustworthy source for their tablets. It seems to me that with such a low dosage range you don't have much margin to avoid errors.
I think when it comes to sleep problems the worst possible place to start is with pills. Pills quickly lead to dependence and a lot of them either stop working or introduce so many side effects that there's little "therapeutic benefit." I think the right approach for insomnia is to focus on improving overall health. A lot of symptoms people go to the doctor for in that category are due to life-style factors. So if you maintain healthy habits you don't have to end up on 10 different pills just to function...
I would love to find a natural or lifestyle remedy to common RLS or PLMD symptoms that I get from time to time. The problem is that for some people it's impossible to identify what are the triggers and sometimes it's just genetics you have no control over.
But sure, do tell people to avoid doctors and make them suffer even though there are drug remedies that don't cause dependence and augumentation.
melatonin should be consumed in doses an order of magnitude smaller than the smallest available dosage. melatonin should also be consumed in a particular time period to correctly trigger the circadian rhythm. long term consistent melatonin use is not advised outside of special cases (eg elderly where morning cognition is unimpactful). irregardless I don't believe that consuming modified release melatonin is healthy long term, because it breaks the circadian rhythm ... but if it works it works.
if you can afford expensive supplements, perhaps consider trying magnesium threonate for sleep. anecdotally this caused intense dreaming, leading to 1 less sleep cycle being required for restfulness. you could also try eating tons of tabouli and see if a massive apigenin hit calms the body for sleep. skullcap as a tea has some interesting properties regarding GABA modulation. on tea, passionflower is a decent MAO inhibitor and knocks some people out, but that's way less sustainable than melatonin. lastly dont lie down on your right side after eating!!!
>melatonin should be consumed in doses an order of magnitude smaller than the smallest available dosage.
It's available on Amazon in doses as low as 100mcg: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MJL2GTC Are you saying this because you believe the correct dose is on the order of double-digit mcg, or because you're under the impression that the lowest available dose is single-digit mg?
the lowest otc dose I previously witnessed was 1mg, perhaps my phrasing should have been "smallest commonly available dosage", because the correct dose is indeed around 100mcg
You will not just sleep better, you will have no issues sleeping at night and getting up in the morning. Downside is that you will definitely be awake once the sun rises (sucks in summer if you live far from the equator) and if you shut the blinds and have no automatic opener you are very likely to oversleep. Tuning your body to the solar day has pros and cons.
https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312
Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes.
Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against morning cognition.
I apologize for not reading the full study before submitting it on Hacker News and for the misleading headline on the frontpage given the context of the dosages used, I really should have noticed that the link only contained an abstract.
You can find smaller pills. But you might have to try several chains or order online to get them.
I can only find that in a comment here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th... but I could have sworn it was in the main article when I first read it. (If so that makes it less likely, because the author revises his articles for correctness)
That (albeit long) article is worth reading. For example, it explains that melatonin is a phase signal, so being saturated with too much melatonin actually makes the signal less clear (as well as potentially causing other issues).
I would be groggy a few hours after taking the pill but not in the morning.
https://store.usp.org/product/1380105?srsltid=AfmBOop0oZFH9S...
But I accidentally ran this test on myself recently and didn’t realise until I got home and found my full cup on the bench.
It was disturbing to know how much I need it.
4 is almost universally too much..
3 is the most I’ve ever recommended.
More than enough.
Personal experience: I have mild insomnia* and I sometimes take melatonin. It generally does help, but I can be groggy in the morning, if I took it too late in the evening. Happens sometimes. But for me, it's so much better to be sometimes a bit groggy for a short while, compared to being completely exhausted from sleep deprivation all day.
*I was a startup founder for 10 years and practically did not sleep during that time. Even years after that life, it feels like my body is not responding to melatonin that much. Or my body is not secreting enough itself. Who knows.
This is from the first paragraph in the abstract:
> Exogenous melatonin has been shown to improve sleep in individuals with sleep disorders, such as insomnia and delayed sleep phase disorder. However, research on the effect of exogenous melatonin on sleep in healthy young adults is limited.
Regarding "sleep more to be more efficient"; Hard to say without visiting a parallel universe. But in this specific case it was really about having enough hours in a day. Most of the work did not require me at my sharpest. If I was in the same situation today, Claude would be doing these menial things for me and I'd sleep more. But we didn't have Claude then.
It was a tech startup that I wanted to build without any outside money. With investments of course I'd just hire more people. I had luck and perseverance, and everything turned out great. I had 100% ownership and sold it for private equity. Now I only work because I like solving tricky problems, and not working gets incredibly boring after a while.
I certainly did and struggle with both sleep and stress induced anxiety, 9 years after my founder burnout.
- study: we tested specifically healthy young adults and found melatonin may have a negative effect on this cohort. We make zero claims about any other cohort.
- every lay person reading the study, of any age: scientists just proved melatonin makes me dumb in the morning! Oh no!
My mornings have always been impaired, going back to pre-school. Meds don't make my mornings any worse than my baseline.
Glycine takes some getting used to, as you will have crazy intense dreams at first. But it is a very safe supplement to take even in large doses.
I always had huge insomnia issues after a physically intensive days after workouts. The stack I settled on solved it. A heavy day just needs a bit more magnesium and quite a bit more glycine.
I've found Tart Cherry - as an OTC supplement to work much better. More pleasant drift off to sleep, less waking up at night, and no morning grogginess.
Not surprising at all. The vast majority of people taking supplements are avoiding either the doctor, eating a better diet, or regular exercise.
What are the odds that someone comfortable taking overpriced sketchy pills is also probably comfortable taking other substances? I only have to look at any random suburban strip mall in the USA to get my answer. I always chuckle at the IV drip place next door to the bar.
I'd be careful with the methodology here. There's been research that shows that most melatonin supplements are megadosed, with something like the "physiological dosage range" being 1 - 2 micrograms (ug.) So I'd hope the researchers got a trustworthy source for their tablets. It seems to me that with such a low dosage range you don't have much margin to avoid errors.
I think when it comes to sleep problems the worst possible place to start is with pills. Pills quickly lead to dependence and a lot of them either stop working or introduce so many side effects that there's little "therapeutic benefit." I think the right approach for insomnia is to focus on improving overall health. A lot of symptoms people go to the doctor for in that category are due to life-style factors. So if you maintain healthy habits you don't have to end up on 10 different pills just to function...
It's a slippery slope, trust me on that.
I would love to find a natural or lifestyle remedy to common RLS or PLMD symptoms that I get from time to time. The problem is that for some people it's impossible to identify what are the triggers and sometimes it's just genetics you have no control over.
But sure, do tell people to avoid doctors and make them suffer even though there are drug remedies that don't cause dependence and augumentation.
if you can afford expensive supplements, perhaps consider trying magnesium threonate for sleep. anecdotally this caused intense dreaming, leading to 1 less sleep cycle being required for restfulness. you could also try eating tons of tabouli and see if a massive apigenin hit calms the body for sleep. skullcap as a tea has some interesting properties regarding GABA modulation. on tea, passionflower is a decent MAO inhibitor and knocks some people out, but that's way less sustainable than melatonin. lastly dont lie down on your right side after eating!!!
It's available on Amazon in doses as low as 100mcg: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08MJL2GTC Are you saying this because you believe the correct dose is on the order of double-digit mcg, or because you're under the impression that the lowest available dose is single-digit mg?